i'm curious if i'm doing everything right or if i'm doing something wrong
Level 9 (8 CB BR, 1 TF)
Bloodlines: Abyssal, Arcane
Cost 65 gp Weight 25 lbs.
Damage 1d12 (small), 3d6 (medium) Critical ×3 Type slashing
Category two-handed Proficiency exotic Weapon Group axesA creation of orc smiths, this axe has an oversized head bristling with spikes and a long, thick haft that only barely counterbalances its weight.
If your Strength is less than 19 (or 17 for a Small or smaller butchering axe), you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it, as you’re unable to maneuver its daunting size and weight.
Is it logically to assume that I would need 21 str for a Large sized BA, which I can wield with -4 on attack rolls with the giant weapon feat of TF? Or do I follow the "small or smaller" logic with 19 for bigger than small and 17 for small or smaller?
Thanks to crossblooded I can select at 4th Level of BR from the abyssal Demonic Bulk (Su) and at 8th level Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Sp) even though I don’t have Arcana Bloodrage and I can just use Displacement or Haste on myself?
If everything is okay so far and I simple assume that that I have 26 Str and BAB +9/+4 with Weapon focus and EWP on (Impact large) butchering axe + being enlarged (Demonic Bulk), attack roll is the following:
Hit = 9 BAB, +8 Str, 1+ WP, +1 (Impact) Enchantment -2 improper sized two-handed weapon, -2 Giant weapon feat = 15 Base Hit
Damage = 3d6 base, large 4d6, huge (because of me enlarged) 6d6, impact 8d6 + 13 (1,5 str mod rounded up) = 40 average damage on hit.
What is my threat range, 5ft or 10ft because I’m undefined large or bigger with a huge sized weapon or is there even a dead zone?
How many dices to I get on a vital strike 16d6? (I’m assuming that I didn’t overlook anything)
Thanks for the help in advance!
If everything is okay so far and I simple assume that that I have 26 Str and BAB +9/+4 with Weapon focus and EWP on (Impact large) butchering axe + being enlarged (Demonic Bulk), attack roll is the following:
Hit = 9 BAB, +8 Str, 1+ WP, +1 (Impact) Enchantment -2 improper sized two-handed weapon, -2 Giant weapon feat = 15 Base Hit
To Hit = 9(BAB) + 8(STR) + 1(Weapon Focus) + 1(Weapon Enhancement) - 2(Improperly Sized Weapon) - 2(Giant Weapon Wielder) - 1(Large Size catagory) = +14
I'm not sure if Giant Weapon Wielder stacks with the normal penalty for wielding weapons of the wrong size, but at first look it seems like it does.I also assumed that your +8 STR included the buff from Enlarge Person, but if you haven't added that yet then you can add another +1 to hit (Enlarge Person gives you +2 STR and -1 to-hit, so it averages at the same to-hit as if you hadn't used it, but with higher damage).
Damage = 3d6 base, large 4d6, huge (because of me enlarged) 6d6, impact 8d6 + 13 (1,5 str mod rounded up) = 40 average damage on hit.
Damage = 3d6 Medium, 4d6 Large (the weapon you're using), 6d6 Huge (Enlarge Person), 8d6 Gargantuan (Impact Weapon).
Your STR-mod is +8, which means 8 x 1.5 = 12. There's no need to round anything. If you did round you ALWAYS round down. If your STR-mod becomes +9 it would be 9 x 1.5 = 13.5, which rounds DOWN to 13.
What is my threat range, 5ft or 10ft because I’m undefined large or bigger with a huge sized weapon or is there even a dead zone?
If you're enlarged you'll threaten 10 feet (2 squares) around you. This isn't a Reach-Weapon, so you threaten the squares directly adjacent to you (5 feet out) as well as the squares 10 feet out.
How many dices to I get on a vital strike 16d6? (I’m assuming that I didn’t overlook anything)
16d6 is correct for Vital Strike. If you're going that route I'd suggest Power Attack and Furious Focus for a free +9 damage (well "Free" meaning 2 feats, but no attack penalty).
EDIT: Final Attack/Damage with Power Attack & Furious Focus = +14/16d6+22 (~78 damage per hit)
Is it logically to assume that I would need 21 str for a Large sized BA, which I can wield with -4 on attack rolls with the giant weapon feat of TF? Or do I follow the "small or smaller" logic with 19 for bigger than small and 17 for small or smaller?
RAW it's the latter. It's a special rule for the weapon (you could wield a large Orc Skull Ram or Dwarven Longhammer, both weighting 40lbs, at 5 Str), so we only have the actual text to go by, which doesn't mention increases strength requirements for larger sizes. It's reasonable to extrapolate the strength requirement, but that's something the DM has to decide, it would be a houserule.
What is my threat range, 5ft or 10ft because I’m undefined large or bigger with a huge sized weapon or is there even a dead zone?
Only reach weapons ever have a dead zone. The weapon size is never relevant. There are two versions of large (dito for larger sized), "tall" and "long", which mostly equals "biped" and "quadruped". Humanoid creatures are tall, which means 10ft natural reach.
I think everything else was sufficiently addressed by MrCharisma, who shows that despite his name he's also familiar with other ability scores.
I mocked up a different version of this build that relies on the Metamorph Alchemist's Shapechanger ability to take on Monstrous Physique III for hours/level. By 12th level, you can turn into a huge creature wielding a butchering axe with the Mercurial Oil anointment increasing its effective size category by one step. In total 3d6 base -> 6d6 @ size huge -> 8d6 w/ Mercurial Oil. I didn't dip into titan fighter due to the very significant penalties to hit, but it *is* an option if you want to get to 12d6 damage/attack.
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Man I just cannot WAIT for 2E to put to bed all these silly oversized weapons and terrible math games that 1E encourages.
Nothing against you all personally but .... I'm sorry, this stuff has been broken since 3.0 and has only gotten sillier as time goes on. While I understand that all of this here is technically RAW, I'd personally ban it just as I did 12 years ago when I first ran into this kind of nonsense.
TL:DR: A GM may be wrong by RAW to ban this, but they have EVERY right to tell you you cannot do what you're trying to do, it's disruptive, OP, and goofy as all get out.
It isn't really OP. But I can sympathize with themetricsystem. I've had a player in my group that used to do this repeatedly. Every character was the same. Maybe the class changed slightly, but the build was always biggest 2h weapon I can equip, and stack as many various size increase effects as possible.
It gets old real fast. And is definitely nonsense.
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Yeah, saying it's OP is probably not exactly fair, it simply excels at doing 1 thing and one thing only. In that regard I guess you could call it balanced but....
It puts the GM in the role of having two choices when it comes to dealing with the Character- and here is why I consider is nonsense.
A) You play as rote, knowing full well that this 1-trick pony is going to only EVER EVER EVER do one thing, and that is 1st Round- Charge/Double Move; 2nd + Round- Vital Strike/Move & Attack. You play your monsters as is, and know full well that a single hit from this tactic will bring the baddie to its knees or at least bring it to half it's total HP on average. No melee opponent can stand more than 3-5 of these attacks that is within CR range as long as their dice don't throw a coup against the player. This lack of challenge will boil down to the GM "being nice" and allowing this to continue while the rest of the players feel they're being shown up by the guy who swings around his weapon for 34-358 damage per attack.
B) You start introducing fiat challenges that prevents them from swinging their stupid large weapon around. This can be as simple as taking notice that there is NO WAY a Large PC could fight with a NORMALLY sized two handed weapon in pretty much ANY normally scaled building, let alone an oversized weapon for their own specially oversized PC. That or Dispel Magic and Sunder Weapon and this PC goes from doing tons of damage to being as useless as a rogue with no fingers.
The amount of investment into the character from a feat, equipment, build, race, and magic standpoint is ridiculous, and showing up to an actual game with the expectation that you can make all of these confluences of benefits work in your favor "when the time comes" is ludicrous. No matter what the GM is going to have to greenlight you using what will amount to your "Signature Attack" in any environment other than an open field outside or in some room with 20+ ft tall ceilings in every combat encounter area.
Either way, please don't take this as my saying it's "badwrongfun" but simply my 2c from having played with and GMd for players and characters like this going all the way back to the original sinner in this regard, Goliaths. The idea wrecked the balance of the game I played (Was a Dragonfire Initiate) and after 3 weeks of this 1-trick-pony curbstomping things we ended up getting TPKd by some devils that were WAY over CR but pretty much HAD to be to threaten this (Again) kind of nonsense. As a GM, I had an easier time of it but the player eventually retired the PC because... well they weren't having fun. The campaign was set underground, you probably know the one, and his character could barely move around down there let alone setup some big overhanded oversized, enlarged, superbuff attack... if I remember correctly that character retired to become a farmer I think.
/rant concluded
I don't see it as a huge problem. The damage is huge, but they have to hit. A single low roll means the entire turn is wasted.
If you want to change the players' choices try running some 1-shot adventures with Iconic characters. The iconics tend not to be very optimised, but they have lots of options, which gives the players a taste of different play-styles. Nothing encourages change like a taste of something new.
@Themetricsystem
You're overestimating the strength of oversized weapon builds. It might have been different back when people stacked size modifiers however they wanted, but that's not what's happening here.
OP's Vital Strike build will have slightly higher average damage than someone who just took Power Attack and EWP, while requiring more feats, gold and dipping one level in another class. If OP consider MrCharisma's and *Khan*'s advice to get Furious Focus and Irongrip Gauntlets that's an average of 78 dmg on a hit with a 70% chance of hitting a CR 9 enemy.
Surely you've seen someone deal more than 55 dmg per round at level 9? It's just a novelty build for those who like rolling many damage die, the opposite of those math games you dislike. A core Paladin or Ranger is pumping out higher numbers that those, so I think you should direct your attention to them first.
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If you want to use vitalstrike in more situations then I recommend weapon trick - cleaving Smash and Divine Fighting Technique - Greatsword Battler. The last one requires you to worship Gorum and give up the orc Butcher Axe in favor of a greatsword (saves you a feat)
No melee opponent can stand more than 3-5 of these attacks that is within CR range as long as their dice don't throw a coup against the player.
Wait, what? A CR appropriate enemy shouldn't survive 3-5 rounds from any even remotely well build martial, unless they have special defenses.
For instance, the same build using a medium sized +1 furious butchering axe and using Boots of Speed does 96.1 average damage on a full attack against a default CR9 enemy, while only being 4 damage behind on a charge. That's with one fewer feats, no dip, and 4k gold less spend. Even against DR 10 the normal build is ahead! The HP for a default CR 9 enemy is 115, by the way.
I'm clearly not a martial optimizer, so how is the Paladin at least getting that damage?
Smite Evil?
Str 18 (22), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14 (16)
Relevant Magic Items:
+2 Glaive, Belt of Strength +2, Headband of Charisma +2
Feats (1/6 used):
Power Attack
***
Buff: Divine Favor, Smite Evil
+20/+15 (1d8+30, x3)
***
A core paladin using a Glaive and Power Attack would end up with 58.8 dmg per round with Divine Favor (as compared to the Vital Strike's 58.1 when we account for crits).
If we assume both builds get an AoO for their increased reach, then the Vital Strike build is ahead at 96.6 dmg per round with the Paladin at 79.8 (no Smite Evil on the AoO).
But that's the bare minimum I'd expect of any core paladin. If we throw in Haste the paladin is superior, but if the GM loves archers and hates melee the Vital Strike build will come out on top.
Probably should have double-checked before submitting.
1d10+32, not 1d8+30
So 64 dmg per round, or 87.5 with an AoO at a non-smite target.
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Interesting discussion going on!
I was more interested if I did everything right (in the calcs and didn't oversee something more serious) and I wanted to have this raging Barbarian who can self-sustain the buffs passively without preparation time and without having more stuff hanging on him then a classical dark alley seller from a movie in a trench coat ;)
Just imagine getting a large Character in the city getting stuck between the buildings! And if we would go for "realistic" then every encounter which wouldn't be in the open field wouldn't be possible at all, simple no space to swing huge sized weapons in "closed space".
But I like to imagine to be the "pyramid head" from the silent hill movie, just with an axe for moar dices!
EDIT: Anyway there is nothing that would prevent me from using standard power attack full round with haste to get the same amount of attacks, granted my hits would be more awful without further aid but for the sake of argument that is not thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat important to dish out higher theoretical numbers.
NOWWWW I get it. Didn't realize the AoO was being factored in. The issue you will find is that it's generally 1 attack bonus = 2 damage. Right now you're looking at something like -4 to attack for not actually close to +8 damage.
Actually, it's more like -4 attack vs. +12 damage. -1/+2 ratio is usually already a good deal, but in this case, there's the extra feat spend and the extra 14k gold spend to consider. Which leads my to the next thing:
Anyway there is nothing that would prevent me from using standard power attack full round with haste to get the same amount of attacks
Presuming you have Haste. For my calculation I dropped the weapon form +3 equivalent to +2 equivalent and spend the freed up 10k on the Boots of Speed.
I can get auto enlarge(DB) and haste or displacement(GAB) when I decide to rage for the duration of my rage.
This 10k on boots of speed are unnecessary for the sake of dishing out damage discussion (not to survive the aftermath).