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Something to keep in mind that dungeon crawling and how exactly it works, how specific you have to be and what you have to say to search is one of those most table variationy things in the game: the rules on it are almost completely non existent and i've seen everything from "You're semi competent quasi trained murderhobos in a tomb I assume you're searching everywhere" to "you didn't say you were searching the BACK of the statues mouth"
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I see it as the difference between “noticing” and trap and “searching” for a trap. Trap spotter is a passive perception to see if you happen to notice something without specifically looking for it. You would not be using take 10/20 on this check since those are both active uses of a skill. Searching for traps OTOH is an active use of perception and can be just a quick look rill or take 10 or a lengthy, intensive search (take 20). So IMO, yes you would get two (or more) perceptions checks to find a trap given the circumstances described.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Trap Spotter ensures you always get at least 1 check. But if you didn't suspect a trap (didn't ask to search as a player) it doesn't tell you that you didn't notice something, until it's too late of course.
I think the best way to handle this in PFS is to prepare a card with your name, perception score and "TRAP SPOTTER" on it and hand it to the GM at the beginning of the session. If there's a trap written in the scenario he can roll your check in secret and tell you if you notice something.
The advantage is that you're freed from the burden of worrying if you're metagaming. If you ask for an active check, that's just you being careful, not you metagaming because you were just asked to roll a perception check but nobody else was asked.
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We really should have a standard set of pathfinder procedures/awareness/paranoia levels as standard operating procedures
Ambrois valsin: We're just going to CHARRRRRRRRGE in. Ready the PMD! (paladin mine detector)
Amenopheus: Search for traps every 10 feet, perception check everything as we go, take 20 on highly suspicious items like altars and treasure left out in odd places.
The Paracountess: We're taking 20 on everything. I don't care if we're in here till our sustaining spoon runs out.
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I think the best way to handle this in PFS is to prepare a card with your name, perception score and "TRAP SPOTTER" on it and hand it to the GM at the beginning of the session. If there's a trap written in the scenario he can roll your check in secret and tell you if you notice something.
I do this when playing one of my trap spotters, except that I inform the GM of the ability as I put out a card tent with my character's name and "+X Perception to find traps" in large letters. It's one less piece of paper for the GM to juggle, and easy for them to spot during play. Some GMs roll secretly as needed, while others have me roll when it's an obvious place for a trap. One just had me roll a half dozen times before game, and wrote down the results to use in order as they were needed.
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Taking 20 takes 2 full minutes. That's metagamy to be searching some 10 foot area for 20 rounds. If you have no buffs running, and have already been hit by traps, and are in a suspicious area, then it could make sense.
Taking 10 takes 6 seconds, the same as the regular check. That should be the standard way of operating if you have a +15 or +20 modifier. A 25 or 30 perception total finds nearly every trap in PFS.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I find there's a bit of a difference between SFS and PFS too when it comes to Take 20 vs. traps.
PFS has a lot more buffs in the game that run out if you go over a dungeon inch by inch. Perception skill can be boosted to the point where you can spot traps on a Take 10.
SFS traps do more damage, have DCs that pretty much nobody can do on a Take 10, there are not that many buffs that would expire. Also, it seems almost like an iron rule that every scenario shall include at least one trap. So until you've found it, you should be deeply suspicious of every door or important-looking object.
Is that metagaming? If every adventure your character has been on before there was a really dangerous trap, then this is just XP. I mean, experience.
The metagaming might be "we've found the trap, there probably won't be another". Of course, sometimes there is another one.
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Taking 20 takes 2 full minutes. That's metagamy to be searching some 10 foot area for 20 rounds. If you have no buffs running, and have already been hit by traps, and are in a suspicious area, then it could make sense.
Taking 10 takes 6 seconds, the same as the regular check. That should be the standard way of operating if you have a +15 or +20 modifier. A 25 or 30 perception total finds nearly every trap in PFS.
I can think of other reasons. Just about any mysterious dungeon, for one.
There's at least one PFS scenario where your contact says, 'There's a secret door in this room, go find it to continue the story.'
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The only metagamey I see on occasion is when the rogue searches for traps and doesn’t find any, then suddenly when they roll a one (or other significantly low number) someone else suddenly wants to search. It’s one of the few times I will deny a player action. Of course this can be mitigated by rolling for the player behind the screen, but I like to give the player every opportunity to control their own destiny. Pregenerated rolls is probably the best way to handle it, sometimes I may forget
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The number of times that the rogue has been the best at spotting a trap in my experience have been few. There’s usually someone around who can and has maxed out perception to the point the Trapfinding bonus doesn’t matter. Assuming the rogue hasn’t traded away Trapfinding.
Taking 20 in a room or on a door isn’t metagaming other than using the mechanic for what it’s meant for. It ensures you don’t miss something assuming you can make the roll. Most groups aren’t going to take 20 every 10 feet anyway, due to buff spells. If they want to, just make sure to track the time if it matters.
Where I’ve run into issues with Trap Spotter isn’t with multiple rolls or whether the roll is public or not. It’s when I or the GM doesn’t know someone has Trap Spotter, then a trap goes off, then the player complains and there’s backtracking involved.
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Most groups aren’t going to take 20 every 10 feet anyway...
That's good because 10 feet doesn't really have anything to do with Perception in Pathfinder except with respect to penalties for distance which is something that most GMs forget or ignore. A single Perception attempt covers everything within line of sight. The idea of searching a 10ft square is a hold-over from v3.5 that no longer applies.
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If the rogue is stopping to search, why wouldn't everyone stop and search?
When they have never indicated any desire for their characters to stop to search the past 5 doors that the rogue searched--in fact, each time they all made a point to stay 15 ft away from the door while the rogue searched--but now that he rolled a 2, everyone suddenly wants to search that door too.
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Most groups aren’t going to take 20 every 10 feet anyway...That's good because 10 feet doesn't really have anything to do with Perception in Pathfinder except with respect to penalties for distance which is something that most GMs forget or ignore. A single Perception attempt covers everything within line of sight. The idea of searching a 10ft square is a hold-over from v3.5 that no longer applies.
Take-10 posted the link. It was an unfortunate FAQ, but it exists. Obviously a GM can use their judgement if it’s slowing down a game, but the rule is out there now.
EDIT: Though note that’s for searching a 10-foot square. Spotting a trap or someone hiding doesn’t always require searching a specific area. At which point the range absolutely should come into play. As should limits on darkvision or normal sight. I see light sources basically hand waved after someone says I cast light a lot. More in person than online, where dynamic lighting exists. You can’t spot something 45 feet away if 45 feet away is dark and you have normal vision.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I remember the mammoth thread a while back that lead to that FAQ, and the context was very much that you don't automatically roll Perception to spot traps. Finding a trap requires either some special ability that gives you a roll (Trap Spotter, Stonecunning), or actively searching.
It was not so much a "this is what the rules have always said" but more a "yeah the rules were always vague but we're coming down on this side" FAQ.
It does mean that some traps that were meant to be spotted automatically in some scenarios are now rather nasty. Especially stuff like traps that you encounter off-map, for example on a forest trip to see a certain magical clock tower.
The concept of Exploration Mode tactics in P2 is clearly also an attempt to get it right from the start the next time.
And then of course there are hazards, which are sometimes hard to distinguish from traps except that most of the things that give you a chance to be forewarned of traps don't apply. The template for writing a trap at least includes a "put a perception DC here" spot. I've run into hazards that you ought to have had some chance to spot but couldn't. As in "I take 20 to search this thing because stealing it couldn't possibly be this easy" and didn't find any traps, and didn't see the hazard because there was no DC.
