Alchemist's Mutagen - Temp or Perm Bonus?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

When an alchemist drinks his mutagen to gain a alchemical bonus to his Strength, thereby reducing his Intelligence, is this a temporary increase/penalty or considered a 10 minutes per level permanent increase/penalty? More directly, does the number of bombs available decrease by one while the mutagen is active?

Scarab Sages

It's a temporary bonus. Generally even things that are permanent bonuses have to be active for 24 hours before they are considered permanent. You also don't lose a bonus extract while it's active.

Dark Archive

Ferious Thune wrote:
It's a temporary bonus. Generally even things that are permanent bonuses have to be active for 24 hours before they are considered permanent. You also don't lose a bonus extract while it's active.

What do you mean by "don't lose a bonus extract while it's active"?


Quote:
An alchemist can create only a certain number of extracts of each level per day. His base daily allotment of extracts is given on Table: Alchemist. In addition, he receives bonus extracts per day if he has a high Intelligence score, in the same way a wizard receives bonus spells per day.

You don't lose bonus extract slots from mutagens either.


ckdragons wrote:
What do you mean by "don't lose a bonus extract while it's active"?

You get bonus extracts for having a high intelligence score the same way a wizard gets bonus spells.

But as Ferious Thune pointed out you don't lose them (or bombs) for taking your mutagen.

Dark Archive

Maybe I phrased my question incorrectly....

Would the mutagen's Int penalty affect the number of bombs and bonus extracts available?

"In addition, while the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores."

Isn't a penalty the same as drain?


ckdragons wrote:

Maybe I phrased my question incorrectly....

Would the mutagen's Int penalty affect the number of bombs and bonus extracts available?

"In addition, while the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores."

Isn't a penalty the same as drain?

No. Ability drain may apply a penalty, but not all penalties to ability scores are ability drain. A barbarian with 13 str and power attack, doesn't lose the ability to use power attack when fatigued.


Something to note:

When you take a strength mutagen, you get -2 to intelligence. This might prevent you from using an extract if you no longer have the minimum intelligence to use the extract ( 10 + extract level )

SRD wrote:
To learn or use an extract, an alchemist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the extract’s level.


The two pertinent quotes from the CRB glossary under Ability damage, drain etc... are:

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

And:
"Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence."

So, no lost bombs per day, no bonus extracts lost, and no lost access to extracts.


Java Man wrote:

The two pertinent quotes from the CRB glossary under Ability damage, drain etc... are:

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

And:
"Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence."

So, no lost bombs per day, no bonus extracts lost, and no lost access to extracts.

By raw, it seems you are right. But I recently played the Pathfinder - Kingmaker video game on PC and my alchemist definitely lost the usage of his extracts from the intelligence penalty of his mutagen. I know the video game is not always using Raw rules from the tabletop, but that is still food for thoughts. Also, by the same RAW rules, it appears strength damage does not lower your carry capacity. Which is definitely weird to me. ( in the video game once again it does lower your carry capacity )


I think a few of these cases, like carrying capacity, are excluded for ease of play. A video game has the advantage of not needing the players to recalculate stuff.


MaxWar wrote:


By raw, it seems you are right. But I recently played the Pathfinder - Kingmaker video game on PC and my alchemist definitely lost the usage of his extracts from the intelligence penalty of his mutagen. I know the video game is not always using Raw rules from the tabletop, but that is still food for thoughts.

The CRPG is pretty terrible in ways you can only recognize when you look into them. On the surface it looks like a really good translation of the rules, but you will soon realize it's a very bad idea to take anything in it as evidence toward it working for real.


According to the FAQ, there is pretty much no difference between 'temporary' and 'permanent' ability scores:

Quote:
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.


That's for bonuses, not penalties, which are not treated the same by the rules.

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