Some relevant rules:
When you threaten a space and the opponent moves out
of that space in any way other than a guarded step (see
page 247) or withdraw action (see above), you can use your
reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.
Stand Still (Combat)
You can stop foes that try to move past you.
D Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity by
leaving a square you threaten, you can attempt a melee
attack as a reaction against that foe’s Kinetic Armor Class
+ 8. If you’re successful, the enemy cannot take any further
movement for the rest of its turn. The enemy can still take
the rest of its actions, but cannot leave that square.
Race
When making a race action, you pilot a vehicle at full speed in a
straight line at its current heading using a full action. You must
succeed at a Piloting check (DC = 10 + your vehicle’s item level) to
race. If your vehicle is starting from a dead stop (that is, it didn’t
move last round), the DC of the check increases by 5.
If you fail this Piloting check, the vehicle’s behavior depends
on the circumstances of the check and the surrounding terrain.
If you were attempting to race from a dead stop, the vehicle
stalls and doesn’t move at all. If the vehicle was already moving,
its behavior depends on the terrain. Rough terrain slows the
vehicle, causing it to move at half its full speed at its current
heading. On flat terrain, the vehicle usually moves at full speed
but goes significantly off course. In this case, the GM should
take the 180-degree arc in front of the vehicle and divide it into
four equal 45-degree arcs. Then the GM randomly determines
which of these arcs the vehicle moves into.
A vehicle can’t safely race through difficult terrain or over
obstacles unless outfitted with special gear, nor can it safely race
to a destination you can’t see unless you’ve thoroughly scanned
the destination. If you force a vehicle to race unsafely, you must
attempt a Piloting check at a DC determined by the GM (usually
20 + the vehicle’s item level) when you encounter the difficult
terrain or obstacle. If you fail or the vehicle is uncontrolled (see
page 280), the vehicle crashes or spins out, as determined by
the GM.
After taking a race action, a vehicle doesn’t slow down
immediately. On your next turn, you have four options: you can
use another full action to continue to race at full speed, use a
move action to drive at the vehicle’s drive speed, use a move
action to stop short, or relinquish control of the vehicle as a
swift action. If you take a swift or move action, you can also
take a standard action during that turn. For instance, you could
race one turn, then on your next turn, you could fire a weapon
as a standard action and then drive as your move action.
A racing vehicle provokes attacks of opportunity, but it gets a
+2 bonus to its AC against them due to its speed.
Many vehicles have extremely high full speeds compared to
creatures’ speeds, so racing at full speed is often tantamount
to exiting a battle entirely, unless other vehicles get involved.
So we get:
1) Race is a type of movement action that provokes AoO's
2) Vehicles can be subject to AoO's.
3) Stand still says when a AoO is provoked by a foe, you can instead spend your reaction to use the feat on that foe.
Nothing says stand still doesn't work on vehicles, so therefore it does.
Past a certain level, starfinder PCs are superhero level vs vehicles. I'm not having a break with realism that wasn't already happening here. Changing the race to ram is reasonable, but a houserule.
Vehicles are in sort of a gray area. They're typically inanimate objects. Except, when they have a pilot, suddenly they look a lot like a creature stat block. Most of the tactical rules don't say they do not work on vehicles, therefore they do.
GM discretion is advised.
My ruling, as GM, was that his standstill turned the vehicle's race action into a ram action and the Soldier would take damage too. At least that seems more "realistic". But what does "realistic" even mean in a fantasy universe.
I think it's harsh for your player. He has paid for a feat and you forbid him for using it normally in a perfectly acceptable situation. Unless this situation is supposed to be a common one, which I hardly trust, I would just let him play it by the rules.
After all, he's not putting himself on the vehicle path, he's stopping it. Aiming at the wheels is enough, no need to be in front of it. But I agree that, if the vehicle is racing, there are consequences on the crew!| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nah, vehicles are not foes.
Make the foe stand still all you want, but you won't make the vehicle stand still. If you make a foe stand still inside the vehicle as it passes you, the vehicle will still keep moving and the foe will be in the vehicle moving with it (which means the feat did nothing).
Sure, maybe, if the foe is exposed (e.g. his vehicle is a motorcycle), you can probably use this feat to yank him out/off of the vehicle and make him stand still as the feat. Meanwhile, his vehicle continues forward without him.
If the vehicle fully contains the foe so you can't get him out of it, then there is no way to make him stand still which means the feat is unusable in this instance. In effect, that foe has full cover against you so you couldn't attack or AoO him anyway. You can attack or AoO the vehicle which, not being a foe, cannot be made to stand still.
This is not harsh for the player. Many (most) feats are applicable sometimes and inapplicable other times. You use them when you can and you do something else when you can't.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nah, vehicles are not foes.
Make the foe stand still all you want, but you won't make the vehicle stand still. If you make a foe stand still inside the vehicle as it passes you, the vehicle will still keep moving and the foe will be in the vehicle moving with it (which means the feat did nothing).
Sure, maybe, if the foe is exposed (e.g. his vehicle is a motorcycle), you can probably use this feat to yank him out/off of the vehicle and make him stand still as the feat. Meanwhile, his vehicle continues forward without him.
If the vehicle fully contains the foe so you can't get him out of it, then there is no way to make him stand still which means the feat is unusable in this instance. In effect, that foe has full cover against you so you couldn't attack or AoO him anyway. You can attack or AoO the vehicle which, not being a foe, cannot be made to stand still.
This is not harsh for the player. Many (most) feats are applicable sometimes and inapplicable other times. You use them when you can and you do something else when you can't.
That's a silly distinction made simply because they used different language for stand still and AoO.
They're opponents and can be hit by AoO's, but they're not foes so stand still doesn't work?
Not buying it.
A vehicle can move. A vehicle can provoke an attack of opportunity by moving. Therefore stand still can prevent a vehicle from further movement when it would provoke an attack of opportunity by moving.
Foe and opponent are synonyms and are used as such in this context.
Honestly, the feat stand still probably just needs some sort of caveat on how much bigger a creature you can stop.
Because stopping a colossal creature as a medium creature seems even more unlikely as stopping the (large) fighter mentioned in the original post.
Searching for instances of 'foe' and 'opponent' in the CRB I think I now agree that the vehicle is not the foe. It's some sort of attended object with it's own set of rules. It's probably for the best, because otherwise you could use drag down on a vehicle, even more ridiculous than stand still.
Though it does make sense for walker type vehicles. Can a vehicle be prone? Entangled? Does difficult terrain apply to vehicle speed?
I have a few more questions brought up by this discussion, especially when a smallish vehicle grants total cover.
You can obviously make normal attacks vs vehicles and attacks of opportunity, but:
Can you cleave into a piloted acid auger (total cover to pilot) after hitting it's goblin ally on foot?
Are all combat maneuvers ineffective vs. vehicles since the vehicle is not an opponent? The first step of a combat maneuver is to 'choose an opponent in reach'. Can a colossal giant not grapple/bullrush a huge walker? Or a giant squid a minisub?
Can you charge at a piloted vehicle granting total cover to it's pilot? All movement must be towards the designated opponent.
Edit: Side note: 'foe' and 'opponent' seem to be used interchangeably, but rarely if ever in the same rule entry. Use of the word 'creature' as a target is also used, but almost never mixed with 'foe' and 'opponent'.
Luckily, we have GMs who can make these kinds of calls and decide just how much verisimilitude and/or superheroism they want in their campaign.
Can you punch a car in the hood and make it stop in place? Not likely. Could the Hulk do it? Sure. Can you reach into a speeding car and yank the driver out as it goes by? Not likely. Could Wolverine do it? Sure, why not? What about yanking the driver out of a tank driving by? Not me, but I bet Superman could do it.
What kind of game are we playing? Are the players on the same page as the GM?
These questions should be answered before you all start playing on the first day. Get on the same page.
If you do that, then it's pretty easy for a GM to make a judgment call about whether your Ysoki soldier can stop a speeding vehicle with a reaction and a feat. And when you do allow it or disallow it, your player will probably be on board since you already got on the same page before the adventure began.
I'm not arguing that an even halfway decent GM couldn't make the rules about vehicles & foes & & opponents such work in a clear and consistent fashion that makes sense.
But it looks a lot like vehicles are sometimes treated as creatures and sometimes not depending on the situation and the wording of the ability in question. A little blurb/guideline in armory 2 would be appreciated, not necessary.