Okay, I have a player that wanted to play a Paladin of Gorum but I had some difficulty in this at first. I tried to find a justification for it and nothing at first came to mind. I even tried to direct him towards possibly being a Hellknight, but that didn't sit with me. Then something struck me and I want to see what some others think about it from a story aspect.
So, instead a directly following Gorum the Paladin will actually (at least in his mind, see further) follow Gorum's ally Saint Fang. As hinted, Saint Fang is a tarnished Silver Dragon that fell into service to Gorum, but to become tarnished he had to once be good (in this case lawful good).
So, back to the character. He was raise worshipping Gorum but always view war as a way of defending good and defeating evil, and there should always be honor in it. The rest of his fellow warriors saw his views almost as heresy against Gorum. Then one day he runs across a grissled old silver haired veteran.
This veteran begins to show him that his views are in line with Gorum's teaching, specifically within the views of Saint Fang. Shortly there after arises the newly empowered Paladin of Saint Fang. His beliefs are fully declared heresy and he is outcast from his homeland and his church.
So, I know it's rough, but what do people think?
Okay, I have a player that wanted to play a Paladin of Gorum but I had some difficulty in this at first. I tried to find a justification for it and nothing at first came to mind. I even tried to direct him towards possibly being a Hellknight, but that didn't sit with me. Then something struck me and I want to see what some others think about it from a story aspect.
So, instead a directly following Gorum the Paladin will actually (at least in his mind, see further) follow Gorum's ally Saint Fang. As hinted, Saint Fang is a tarnished Silver Dragon that fell into service to Gorum, but to become tarnished he had to once be good (in this case lawful good).
So, back to the character. He was raise worshipping Gorum but always view war as a way of defending good and defeating evil, and there should always be honor in it. The rest of his fellow warriors saw his views almost as heresy against Gorum. Then one day he runs across a grissled old silver haired veteran.
This veteran begins to show him that his views are in line with Gorum's teaching, specifically within the views of Saint Fang. Shortly there after arises the newly empowered Paladin of Saint Fang. His beliefs are fully declared heresy and he is outcast from his homeland and his church.
So, I know it's rough, but what do people think?
It's outside of RAW, not appropriate to the philosophy of the god and nowhere can I find Saint Fang written up as anything but resembling "a spiky silver dragon but is colored like iron".
That said, if you think you can swing it in your campaign and keep things consistent then by all means go for it! As long as you aren't playing in the PFS then Golarion (like any campaign world) is yours to adjust as you see fit. Don't let anyone tell you it's bad/wrong fun, just do whatever you can to make the most memorable and enjoyable experience for all your players.
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You do realize that he could worship Gorum anyway. While an odd fit, you could say he is devoted to ending the conflicts of whatever is appropriate of the campaign. After all, battle doesn't necessarily mean violence or war, it just means conflict. Searching to resolve conflicts favorably is the same as trying to win a battle.
RAW, you can easily have a Paladin of Gorum. Heck, there is a Paladin of Asmodeus somewhere out there.
Heck, there is a Paladin of Asmodeus somewhere out there.
*hides*
If you're a paladin, and you're being lawful, then you're devoutly upholding the teachings and philosophies of your deity. If you worship a deity who isn't LG, NG, or LN, you're either shirking your duties as a paladin by straying too far from your LG alignment, or you're shirking your duties to your deity by straying too far from the DEITY'S alignment, which isn't lawful behavior, which means you're ALSO not a paladin.
Gorum is a headstrong and impatient deity, prone to
impulsive and emotional outbursts. His first reaction toan unexpected situation is typically violence, and when he
spies something he likes, he takes it. He sees no value in
diplomacy or negotiation. His idea of art is blood spattered
on a shield. To him, music is the ringing of metal on metal,
the crack of breaking bone, and the screams of injured
foes. Poetry is the recitation of challenges and the retelling
of battles, victorious or otherwise. He laughs at pacifists,
especially at the fear on their faces as he chops them apart.
He cares nothing for anything but war...
@J Scot Shady: Good luck in your endeavor, I hope you have a blast.
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Why does your player want to play "a Paladin of Gorum" ? What does he expect ?
The crunch of the class ? If so why not follow Iomedae ?
The fluff of the class (devoted holy warrior) ? Then he should be any class that fits his idea for his PC and still agrees with devoutly following Gorum. Ie, not Paladin, and as closely aligned to CN as possible.
Some possibilities : Oracle, Cleric, Inquisitor, Cavalier
The Book of the Righteous (a 3.5 3P excellent supplement) has a great take on alternate holy warriors too.
I would Highly Recommend looking at the Warpriest from the ACG Playtest, it may fit what you're looking for a bit better.
The Free RPG Day Module is going to have the Half-Orc Warpriest of Gorum Iconic on the cover of it.
You do realize that he could worship Gorum anyway. While an odd fit, you could say he is devoted to ending the conflicts of whatever is appropriate of the campaign. After all, battle doesn't necessarily mean violence or war, it just means conflict. Searching to resolve conflicts favorably is the same as trying to win a battle.
RAW, you can easily have a Paladin of Gorum. Heck, there is a Paladin of Asmodeus somewhere out there.
I am sorry Monk, but I think you may want to reread some of the information on Gorum. Ending conflict is completely against his plans. Still thanks for the help.
Also, thanks to everyone else.
Why does your player want to play "a Paladin of Gorum" ? What does he expect ?
Raven, this player specifically likes to play characters that are a little outside the box. He also loves playing characters that are devoted to some deity but also a little outside the norm. Together we like to push the ideas a bit and the stories tend to be fun and creative.
Previously he and I had worked on an Iquisitor of Cayden. At first I had thought it didn't fit but we worked out a few things and it lead to some fun story lines. He was charged by Cayden himself (eventually) to search out those in his church that were cowardly in heart and selfish in action. He was awarded the service of a cayhound.
As for what he expects, simply that I will come up with an interesting story to explain things and to test him. He knows there is a chance his paladin may fail and he accepts that. And if I thought that the character wouldn't work, he would work towards something that would.
I thank you for the advice but I was hoping more for feedback on the story aspect, not whether it was valid or what would be a more valid RAW character. I know according to RAW this character is off book, way off book. It's the story that interests,
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I thank you for the advice but I was hoping more for feedback on the story aspect, not whether it was valid or what would be a more valid RAW character. I know according to RAW this character is off book, way off book. It's the story that interests,
I get it better now.
Your player's paladin should have a nice bit of inner conflict because he is trying to follow a greatly CN god. Note that Gorum will not care that much about this PC except if it sees him as a pacifist.
The greatest problem I see for this Paladin is trying to reconcile his Lawful alignment with the fact that his society and the church of his god have basically declared him wrong. Being Lawful, he should follow their edict to the best of his abilities. He could be divided between following the spirit of their ruling and amend his ways as best as possible (ie, try to give up on these heretical LG ideas), or creating a new system (and a new church) based on his views of mixing LG alignment and the worship of Gorum. In the latter case, being Lawful, he will likely try as much as possible to follow the letter of his banishment (for example never setting foot in his homeland again and never trying to convert his previous comrades, but accepting willing disciples).
I get a New Testament vibe out of this, but with a far more martial and wild bent. Should be interesting to see how he (and his previous church) react to people who come to him to follow this new (and far more palatable to Lawful and Good people) way of Gorum.
Also Paladins of Iomedae should come and try to convince him that what he seeks actually resides within their goddess' faith and church.
A nice way to get that rarest of wonders : a Paladin vs Paladin battle.
I get a New Testament vibe out of this, but with a far more martial and wild bent. Should be interesting to see how he (and his previous church) react to people who come to him to follow this new (and far more palatable to Lawful and Good people) way of Gorum.
Also Paladins of Iomedae should come and try to convince him that what he seeks actually resides within their goddess' faith and church.
A nice way to get that rarest of wonders : a Paladin vs Paladin battle.
That's kind of the heart of it. He's doesn't fully worship Gorum but rather Saint Fang, who he sees as a representative of Gorum. Gorum doesn't care either way.
In reality there is more to it, being mislead and possibly manipulated by another. Will he discover the truth? Why does he have these powers if his faith is a lie? Can he keep his faith when the lie is discovered?
As for Paladin on Paladin, it's possible. There a story arc I'm working on that deals with a different devote character that may conflict with Iomedae's church but there is no reason the Paladin can't be involved. The Paladin's conflict will probably be with forces of Gorum that see him as a heretic.
Thanks again.
There is also always the Chevalier prestige class...
There is also always the Chevalier prestige class...
Also your retooling of St. Fang as an intermediary works well as an explanation... Heck, with all the Empyreal lord lords and other things granting divine power these days it isn't even a huge stretch.
Edit to correct Ephemeral to Empyreal. Darn you spell check!
Also your retooling of St. Fang as an intermediary works well as an explanation... Heck, with all the Ephemeral lords and other things granting divine power these days it isn't even a huge stretch.There is also always the Chevalier prestige class...
Well the Paladin believes the power comes from Saint Fang, but who said it doesn't come from somewhere else?
Thanks for the options though, it's much appreciated.
LG Ragathiel grants the Rage subdomain, just so you know ;-)
What?!
Now that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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LG Ragathiel grants the Rage subdomain, just so you know ;-)What?!
Now that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Actually, it is an interesting consequence of the rule that Empyreal Lords grant all subdomains associated with their domains (yes they are far better than even greater gods on this specific point).
2 LG Empyreal lords grant the Destruction domain, and thus the Rage subdomain : Ragathiel and Vildeis. Interesting theories link the both of them and Dispater BTW.
He was raise worshipping Gorum but always view war as a way of defending good and defeating evil, and there should always be honor in it.
Well the thing is that the above isn't the war of Gorum, it's the war of Iomidae or Torag.
No i don't think that can be a paladin of Gorum, because Gorum can give powers to antipaladins, not paladins.
There could be a paladin that worshipped Gorum but he would be fooling himself, Gorum and/or everyone else having Gorum as a patron deity.
About Saint Fang, where can i find more info on him so that i can comment on that?
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He was raise worshipping Gorum but always view war as a way of defending good and defeating evil, and there should always be honor in it.Well the thing is that the above isn't the war of Gorum, it's the war of Iomidae or Torag.
Not necessarily. A CG follower of Gorum could easily have that attitude to some degree...it's the Lawful bit that's really a problem, not the Good.
If your GM allows CG Paladins (I do for example), I'd just do one of those, no hoop-jumping necessary. If not, I'd go with a CG Inquisitor of Gorum. They'd get to Bane and Judgment their Greatsword and go to town, and recieve most benefits Paladins get to at least some degree plus getting a huge bonus on Intimidate (which seems Gorum appropriate).
But trying to justify a Lawful follower of a Chaotic God is just not a good plan, IMO.
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The Good is almost as much of a problem too, because Gorum really doesn't care. He's pretty much the Crom of the Golarion set.
True...but that hardly means his worshipers can't care, it just means they don't have to. The one step rule is a thing, after all. CG Clerics of Gorum exist, and Abadar (who's at least as uncaring, in a different way) has Paladins, so it's certainly possible.
The Lawful thing, though, there's no good justification for that.
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I wouldn't allow that in my Golarion campaign.
If I had a player who wanted to play a religious warrior dedicated to Gorum, I'd suggest a warpriest (playtest version, converting to real one when the Advanced Class Guide comes out), or an inquisitor, or a fighter/cleric.
Actually, fighter/cleric might be the best option, especially if you take the War and Destruction domains. Between the Rage and Destructive Smite abilities, you'd be able to do a fair approximatiom of the paladin's Smite Evil ability.
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I think the major issue here is that the paladin ideal as it stands in Golarion and Gorum are at odds. Loyalty, honor and defense of the weak mean nothing to him. Only strength and survival of the fittest matter. Sort of the embodiment of "Might Makes Right."
Perhaps you could encourage your player of the character to work up a background where Gorum is the dominant diety of the culture he was raised in? This can make him a Gorumite (Gorlic? Gorumtarian?) culturally, but with a different would view (and maybe secret patron?).
In the WoTR campaign I'm currently playing, I'm playing a druid (saurian shaman from Tolguth) that venerates Gorum because he's half Kellid (the other half is half orc). It works well for cultural reasons (he was raised Gorrish). Class wise, I can also see Gorum appreciating the destructive power in dinosaurs, and although the character eschews metal armor, he still totes around a stupid huge sword and uses it to great effect (when not stomping things flat as an allosaurus or dropping flame strikes).
Crunch wise, there's always the Paladin of Freedom from the old 3.X days. You could convert that.