Allignment question amd fearing my parties paladin.


Advice


So my character is currently chaotic nuetral and i have clarified she borderlines chaotic evil. She commits acts that could be considered evil tho there more petty than anything however she is a smuggler so should i consider her chaotic evil. She does do some good occasionally though. It matters as we have a paladin in our party and i fear what would happen if she blipped up on his detect evil. Our party is disfunctional enough and shes been under enough fire from the party (and life in general but thats besides the point) as it is and both my character and the party dont need another reason for conflict.


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Did you talk to the other players about this?

The starting point on this kind of issue is OUT OF THE GAME discussion among players and GM regarding the PCs relations. How to proceed from there it is something you guys should decide together.

From what you wrote, im assuming you made a PC that does not match your party if they keep giving you fire. If you do turn CE, the paladin will literally need to have pretty good reasons to even work in the same party you are without losing his powers, so yeah, chances are this will escalate the situation if you dont deal with this now.

Usually one would either agree to go nice, aka start to go towards good instead of evil much more, make a new PC, aka you just exchange the problem character out of the party and let it be evil as a NPC, or, if you guys are certain you can deal with the ramification of this, you start to allow PvP and greater party conflicts, aka eventually the party is likely to kill your PC if they really dont like you.


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Paladin is my favourite class.

BUT

The restrictions on Paladin and the subjective nature of alignment really do necessitate an out-of-character discussion before the game starts. Make sure the party is on board with having a Paladin in the ckass before characters are made.

Once everyone's happy with Paladin, you have to decide how the group dynamic is going to work. Are you and the other players ok with some moral disparity in the group? How about outright conflict? Will you allow PvP? How will you feel if your character is killed by another PC? These questions really should be answered before the game begins to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Obviously you're in the middle of the game, but I think the advice still stands - Have an out-of-character discussion about what you all want from your game. If you have two conflicting characters and the players aren't enjoying the coflict you really have two options:

1. One character (or both) retires, and the player makes a new character - one that won't conflict with the party. I would usually give precedence to the character who's been around longer.

2. One character (or both) changes their behavior.

2a. You can just retcon the character and play them differently with no explanation (which is fine, the goal here is party cohesiveness so a little suspension of disbelief is a small price to pay). This also doesn't necessarily have to be your character, you could change to CG fairly easily, but you could also have the Paladin edit their character sheet to have 8 Wisdom & no ranks in Sense Motive or Perception (this may not even require a re-write) and give your character a high bluff/stealth so that you can be a meanie-poo without that goodie-two-shoes getting in your way.

2b. You could actually role-play the change in chracter. Maybe the paladin finally convinces you of the error of your ways. Maybe you drive the Paladin to insanity and (s)he becomes an anti-paladin. Maybe the paladin has a change of faith and switches to a more forgiving deity, which means you can adventure together provided your character is trying to repent (this is my idea of the middle ground, where the paladin accepts that you're not perfect, but you try to play up the neutral aspect of your character and not the evil part). In certain circumstances you could even have an evil character who's goals (but not methods) align with a paladin. This could lead to some great role-playing where each tries to understand the other's perspective.

Bottom line is this is probably something you shoukd discuss with the other player, and probably the whole group.

Obviously if you're all enjoying yourselves and don't mind the conflict then there's no problem. Since you said the party is disfunctional my advice would be that one of your characters should probably change.


What is your question about the rules?


I noticed two of you saying one of us should change and i do have something in mind this was more of a for now question. My plan is for my character to convert to a desnan and have her do a slow 180 i was asking if i should consider my character chaotic evil or not. The paladin thing wasnt necesarily the focal point of the question and was more me expressing a concern


Warped Savant wrote:
What is your question about the rules?

Should I consider my character chaotic evil as of now?


A character is chaotic evil provided:
- It says "CE" or "Chaotic Evil" on the character sheet
- A GM or rules mechanic tells you "you are chaotic evil now" because of something that you did or that happened to you.

Not otherwise. If you are concerned with your character sliding into evil, perhaps roleplay them with this in mind. A singular evil act won't turn a neutral character evil (unless it's *really* bad) but a pattern of them might.


Note that unless they have an aura, a character won’t blip as evil until they have at least 5 hit dice.


Korafireheart wrote:
Should I consider my character chaotic evil as of now?

The real question is, do you consider your character to be chaotic evil? It's your character. The entire personality, and every single action that character makes, is decided by you. If you want the character to be evil, she's evil. If you don't want the character to be evil, then she isn't! "I have to play my character this (disruptive) way" is a fallacy. This isn't a video game, your actions and dialogue options aren't limited based on your alignment.

I presume your character has some reason to want to work with the party and follow the AP's plot. Unless your character is is a total psychopath with a actual compulsion to do evil (in which case you wouldn't ask those questions), you can chose to have the character decide that working with the party is more important than continuing her illicit activities* (which could lead right into the character's heel-face turn). Unless you actually want your character to be a pure caricature, of course.

*) Smuggling isn't inherently evil. What does she smuggle?


Aside from classes like Paladin (who have alignment restrictions), alignment is determined by actions. If your character is acting evil then they become evil. This is very subjective, which is why there are so many arguments about it. It's also supposed to represent a gradual thing. A single evil act won't necessarily make you evil (with some extreme exceptions), but your general tendancies will push you toward a certain alignment.

Asking what your own alignment should be is not really something we can answer. Again this is probably something you should discuss with your group (out ofncharacter).


Derklord wrote:
Korafireheart wrote:
Should I consider my character chaotic evil as of now?

The real question is, do you consider your character to be chaotic evil? It's your character. The entire personality, and every single action that character makes, is decided by you. If you want the character to be evil, she's evil. If you don't want the character to be evil, then she isn't! "I have to play my character this (disruptive) way" is a fallacy. This isn't a video game, your actions and dialogue options aren't limited based on your alignment.

I presume your character has some reason to want to work with the party and follow the AP's plot. Unless your character is is a total psychopath with a actual compulsion to do evil (in which case you wouldn't ask those questions), you can chose to have the character decide that working with the party is more important than continuing her illicit activities* (which could lead right into the character's heel-face turn). Unless you actually want your character to be a pure caricature, of course.

*) Smuggling isn't inherently evil. What does she smuggle?

She works for a criminal organization so she she smuggles what shes paid to smuggle.


Smuggling makes you chaotic, not evil. People who smuggle slaves out of Cheliax, for example, or most likely Chaotic Good. People who smuggle religious texts into Rahadoum or Razmiran can be any alignment.

"I habitually break the law" doesn't make you evil. A question you should ask about your character is "does she have a line she won't cross?" If it's something like "I won't have anything to do with slavers or apocalyptic demon cults, no matter what I'm getting paid" then CN is appropriate.

Grand Lodge

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Alignment is a fuzzy concept at best. It deals much more with motivation than actual actions. You can make a case for nearly any alignment for your character. In this case, LG is bit of a stretch.

I always pose two multiple choice questions to my players to help them determine their characters alignments.

1) Is your character willing to sacrifice of themselves to help others:
a) Always (Good)
b) if it's not too inconvenient (Neutral)
c) no way, I'll gladly sacrifice others to help myself (Evil)

2) Which is more important. Following a code or personal freedom
a) I always follow a code of behavior (Lawful)
b) I'll to follow a code, as long as it doesn't get in the way (Neutral)
c) Freedom is way more important. (Chaotic)

Your character concept could be practically any combination. Even characters that break the 'law' may follow their own code of conduct. They may always keep their word, may only fight after parley, be blindly loyal to the thieves guild, etc.

If your character smuggles because (s)he values freedom and resents restrictions, chaotic is most apt. If she smuggles because she likes to hurt others, then evil is appropriate.

I generally would agree with cabbage, that your character actually sounds more chaotic neutral than chaotic evil. Unless you are willing to go really dark with your smuggling. Ie, Kidnapping, murder, or just really like inflicting pain on others.


Jared Walter 356 wrote:
Alignment is a fuzzy concept at best. It deals much more with motivation than actual actions.

That's the best way I've ever heard it expressed. I take my hat off to you sir.


Korafireheart wrote:
She works for a criminal organization so she she smuggles what shes paid to smuggle.

Ok, since you didn't address my other points, let my try it a different way:

There are only two questions you have to ask yourself regarding your character (and post the answers, please):

1) Why is the character working for that criminal organization, i.e. why is she a smuggler?
2) Why is the character travelling in the group with the Paladin?


At the risk of opening up a can of worms by referencing another fandom...

Han Solo is pretty much the go-to example of a smuggler character who spends most of his career in moral gray spaces. When he's first introduced in A New Hope, he's a desperate man who has to dodge bounty hunters everywhere he goes, and he does some pretty coldblooded things as a result. He teams up with Ben and Luke solely on a promise of a reward that might--or might not--pacify the crime boss who put a price on his head. He constantly butts heads with the "heroic" types (Luke and Leia) but has a moment of conscience in the end and comes back to help the Rebellion.

However, later movies make it clear that his new good-guy identity is never quite as solid as he pretends, and by the start of the current series, he's backslid into his old smuggler ways, and torqued off a whole new bunch of criminal elements. Despite all this, his two oldest and best friends besides Chewbacca are a Jedi Master (who constantly walks that moral knife's edge familiar to many paladins) and a woman who would make most paladins blush at their lack of conviction.

So, yes, a smuggler and a paladin can get along, under the right circumstances. And even help redeem each other now and then. But it's never going to be easy road.


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Korafireheart wrote:
Our party is disfunctional enough and shes been under enough fire from the party (and life in general but thats besides the point) as it is and both my character and the party dont need another reason for conflict.

Here's the thing: If you don't want intraparty conflict then don't engage in intraparty conflict. It's that simple. The player controls the character and if there's conflict or disruption then it's the player's fault. Character backstory, motivation, personalty quirk or alignment is no excuse for causing outright conflict or disruption with other players.

To help elucidate what I mean I'll use my witch as an example. He's a travelling physician,mystical healer and herbalist. He sells his services. Sometimes for gold but often in exchange for goods and services. If someone can't pay then he might let them owe him but if they truly have nothing to offer then they're out of luck. That's not to say that if he sees someone drowning he'll just leave them to die unless he's offered a reward or incentive, but generally if you want his help then expect to pay. Of the other four players the slayer shares his 'in it for the money' attitude but the other three players are of the hippy dippy 'lets be heroes and help those in need' variety.

Now when the situation arises wherein the Quest-giver is requesting our aid and there's no clear existential or material incentive then my character might interject with a question about a reward and if there's no clear reward the he'll moan and grumble about it; he'll say the party shouldn't take the job but if the majority of the party want to do it then he'll go along with it while making a point to say that he's not entirely happy with the chosen course of action. What he won't do is attack the party, use charms, threats or curses to force other PCs into doing what he want, nor will he just refuse to do anything; this isn't because of a line drawn in the sand by the character, it's my choice not to do those things. In taking the former approach instead of the latter I feel that I satisfy the rp requirements regarding character backstory, motivation and personalty quirks but manage to avoid causing conflict and disruption with other players. This approach tends to work though there's was the rather awkward situation where my GM took me to one side to explain that 'I shouldn't keep demanding payment because I won't actually get anything extra as he'd just put less loot in the game'; he is actually quite intelligent but somehow failed to grasp that it was my character, not me asking for payment. I the player would much rather find equipment then receive gp as it spares me the headache of having to deal with his npc merchants.


To be entirely frank, if your PC is in a dysfunctional party, and your PC is very much one of the dysfunctional characters in the group, stop. Stop with the borderline evil behavior period. because not even in a fictional world will people put up with bad behavior, especially if it screws them over as most evil alignments do eventually. The other PC's will react badly to your hosing them over, and so too will the NPC's once they catch on.

What I typically do as GM is state that your character starts out Neutral aligned, and whatever you end up with as an alignment has to be earned. This alignment basically reflects how NPC's and the world regard your PC. I insist upon PC's treating other PC's as if they were LG, so that there is an absolute minimum of PvP and hurt feelings.


That said, just because a character is LG doesn't mean they are jerks. I usually play paladins as being much like Superman. You notice that nobody inside the DC universe really hates him, and nobody in the real world hates him. He always tries to be considerate, helpful, honest etc. Charismatic, likeable. That's the way I think paladins should be.


Derklord wrote:
Korafireheart wrote:
She works for a criminal organization so she she smuggles what shes paid to smuggle.

Ok, since you didn't address my other points, let my try it a different way:

There are only two questions you have to ask yourself regarding your character (and post the answers, please):

1) Why is the character working for that criminal organization, i.e. why is she a smuggler?
2) Why is the character travelling in the group with the Paladin?

Fisrt i would apoligize for not answering i must have misunderstood what you were asking.

1)she works for an organization because a memeber got her into the organization when she was young and so thats been her carreer for the past 5 years or so. She never left because she enjoys doing it and she wants to move up in the organization. Also to answer a few other questions on why she smuggles, she smuggles becuase shes good at it and enjoys it. She diesnt care who it affects as long as its not here or her father(i should also say shes 17) shes in this for herself and for the money and doesnt care who gets hurt in the process, shes killed plenty to keep them quiet or to prove herself. She doesnt neccesarily enjoy it but she doesnt duslike it either she juat doenst care either way.

As for why shes traveling with a paladin she joined the group a little bit before the paladin did(like one session before) and shes stuck around because being in the party has brought her alot of loot and power. She views the party as an investment.


Korafireheart wrote:
she smuggles becuase shes good at it and enjoys it (...) shes in this for herself and for the money
Korafireheart wrote:
being in the party has brought her alot of loot and power

Do you see a conflict? Because I see a conflict. And yes, I was actually fishing for that answer.

From your other thread I understand that the character is sixth level, going by WBL guidelines, she has gained stuff worth 16000gp. Unless your GM was super lenient with starting wealth based on backstory, that means travelling with the Paladin is way, way more profitable than the smuggling, so from a monetary viewpoint, there's absolutely no reason to continue the smuggling. And it's not like travelling with the party is lacking thrills, right?

I don't know how fast the AP is (timeline-wise), but the way I see it, the "adventuring" (travellign with the party, including Paladin) gives your character more wealth, more power, and provides more than enough thrills.

These are like the perfect ingredients to say (in-universe) "f~$* smuggling, going straight pays off better". You don't need to work on a a lenghty heel-face turn, or more precise, you have already done all work for the "heel" part. Just have your character relaize (when counting the newest loot, for instance) how profitable this line of work is. Is there maybe a CG character or even follower of Desna in the party (or in the NPCs your character knows) that might "convert" your PC? If not, there's always the Divine Sign™ (no divine work actually included) thing, i.e. your character has the realization, a butterfly lands on her/a coin, the character takes that as a sign from Desna.


I disagree with most of the people in this thread. You don't need to stop smuggling if you enjoy it and you don't need to stop committing petty evil acts. Tension between players is bad, but tension between characters can actually be very good. You might want to talk to the player controlling the paladin and come up with a strategy to ensure you take your characters relationship in the most interesting direction possible. Your character doesn't necessarily need to become more good, maybe just more sneaky. Character conflict doesn't need to spill over into player conflict, and it can be quite fun helpful to hear two characters on different ends of the parties spectrum argue. A few petty acts of evil are unlikely to shift your character's alignment. Ultimately I would be less concerned with paladin than I would be with party cohesion. So long as you aren't being directly detrimental to the party, most players will accept you and your character.


Milo33 wrote:
I disagree with most of the people in this thread. You don't need to stop smuggling if you enjoy it and you don't need to stop committing petty evil acts.

Sure, if you want, you can risk getting fired from your 100.000$/year job to make 20 bucks a week with black labor. What's the characters wisdom score?

My post was based on this statement: "My plan is for my character to convert to a desnan and have her do a slow 180"


While getting more money is nice, most people don't roleplay to get rich and most adventurers don't adventure for cash. Letting money be the final arbiter for your character decisions is usually unsatisfying and unoriginal.


Well, I prefer characters with realistic motivations (Korafireheart even said, "shes in this for herself and for the money"), but whatever floats your boat.

Milo33 wrote:
most adventurers don't adventure for cash

Good one. What are you playing, My Little Pathfinder? I presume your characters travel into ancient tombs, face deadly traps, and battle fearsome monsters to solve friendship problems?

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