Called / Throwing Fusion on a Painclaw?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I am considering a melee dwarf biohacker for the Society playtest, and the painclaw with a tactical shield is an attractive option for Beacon Code Dilemma. Painclaws have flexible injection slots and the unwieldy property (which will help to differ the question of what Painful Injections' damage "stacking" means). Since hands used with Tactical Shields can be used to reload, I would be able to use the Quick Load Theorem to load and fire an injection, and then still have a move action to raise my shield.

But what if I need a ranged option? The painclaw doesn't really allow me to hold a gun:

The hand wearing a painclaw can’t be used to hold or operate any other weapon or piece of equipment. Donning or removing the painclaw is a full action. A painclaw cannot be disarmed.

So it takes a full round action to put on or take off a painclaw. Do you have to take it off to use the Throwing Fusion?

The throwing fusion makes even the most cumbersome melee weapon usable as a thrown weapon. A melee weapon with this fusion gains the thrown special property with a range increment of 10 feet.

Emphasis mine. I'd say that an unwieldy requiring a full action to put on or remove fits the definition of cumbersome, but does throwing it count as "removing" the painclaw, or can you simply use the fusion's magic to chuck directly from your hand... if the former, could you still throw it as a full action, or would you need to take the full action to remove it, and then throw it?

Next quesiton, if I also have Called on the painclaw and I use a swift action to summon it, does it appear on my hand, ready to be used in melee, or would I need to make a full action to put it on again?

A weapon with the called fusion can be teleported to its owner’s hand as a swift action, even if the weapon is in the possession of another creature. This ability has a maximum range of 100 feet, and effects that block teleportation prevent the return of a called weapon.

Since it's a teleportation effect that brings the weapon to your hand, theoretically it could appear fully attached. Thoughts?

I assume that it would NOT come back ready to use with the Returning fusion, though:

A returning weapon flies through the air back to you after you make a thrown ranged attack with it. It returns to you just before your next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching the weapon when it comes back takes no action. If you can’t catch it, or if you have moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which you threw it.

As it actually flies back to you, I assume you'd have to put it back on with a full action.


This is actually a very good rules question.

First of all, using rules as written. You could throw this weapon while it is on your hand. It is a melee weapon. It qualifies in every respect. Remember that fusions attach to a weapon to infuse it with magic. Once added, this makes the item magical and it no longer needs to obey the rules of common sense. Fling your hand at an enemy and off it goes.

As for the called fusion, unfortunately it states 'to' it's owner's hand instead of 'on' it's owners hand. So for the called fusion I would say no.

That being said, as a GM I would certainly entertain the idea of an "equipped" fusion that worked similar to the called function but instead places the item on to the appropriate body part. I would limit it's range to bring it in line with lvl 1. Perhaps 30 feet as a maximum.

This could make donning armor a much less painful mechanic as well as gloved weapons.


Dracomicron wrote:
Do you have to take it off to use the Throwing Fusion?

Even if I clearly defend RAW, at some point, logic has to intervene.

A glove, without the hand inside it, doesn't have any mean of actually harming someone. So, I would forbid the use of such a fusion on a Painclaw, and to any non-solid weapons (garotte, whips, etc...).
But it's clearly GM's ruling, RAW, you can, even if it's a bit ridiculous. Now I have the image of your Biohacker challenging someone by throwing his Painclaw to his face :D

For the called fusion, it says it appears in you hand, not that you don it automatically. So you have to put it on.


Change Grips: Changing your grip on a weapon, such as going from wielding a two-handed weapon with both hands to holding it in one hand, is a swift action.

Okay, so the one thing you two agree on is that the Called fusion doesn't bring the painclaw back "worn" or ready to wield. Does that apply to other weapons as well? If I throw my Yellow Star Plasma Lance, a two-handed weapon, and Call it back, does it just appear in one hand, and I would need to make a swift action to change my grip? Would you need to take a swift action to change your grip even with a one-handed weapon, because even if it only uses one hand, the Called fusion just teleports it to your hand, not that it's ready for use again? Because that doesn't seem like the intent.

I mean, the entire point of Called is that you pay to be able to have the weapon ready with a swift action. I am wondering why the super teleporty magic would work to bring a weapon to your hand ready to use but on a weapon that prevents you from using the hand for anything else without taking a full action, somehow that can't be designated to teleport onto your hand, instead of into it?


I'd say it is "called" in a ready to use state. Thus for a glove, it appears back on your hand. There is no wording in the Called fusion for having to re-ready a called weapon, so I don't see why a glove would be different.

That being said, as a GM I would be waiting for some mishap so I could take your hand with it when you try and "rocket-fist" your glove at someone. :p


SuperBidi wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
Do you have to take it off to use the Throwing Fusion?

Even if I clearly defend RAW, at some point, logic has to intervene.

A glove, without the hand inside it, doesn't have any mean of actually harming someone. So, I would forbid the use of such a fusion on a Painclaw, and to any non-solid weapons (garotte, whips, etc...).
But it's clearly GM's ruling, RAW, you can, even if it's a bit ridiculous. Now I have the image of your Biohacker challenging someone by throwing his Painclaw to his face :D

For the called fusion, it says it appears in you hand, not that you don it automatically. So you have to put it on.

1) It's magic

2) You can shoot the nails at someone

I think the amount of time it takes to put back on would come into play though. That would make it problematic.

If you're a strength based biohacker why not use shiurken for ranged? They use strength to attack and you can use your class abilities with them.


I would agree that, RAW, the Throwing fusion would magically allow this weapon to be used at range as described. It's magic, just think of the cinematics however you want... It would be up to the GM to disallow however on the basis of "that doesn't make any sense because the thing is literally strapped to your hand, maybe even with superglue..." if they wanted to.

As far as returning or called - no, it would not return ready to use. If so, you could easily circumvent the donning aspect that normally requires a full action by simply "calling" it from your pocket. It shows up in your hand, but you'd still need to put the thing on properly. Neither of those fusions actually specifically say the weapon thus called/caught is immediately ready for use. For nearly every other weapon, such specifics aren't necessary, and this weapon specifically indicates a full action to put on and a full round to take off. Remember, specific rules always override general rules.

This second bit could also be used by a GM to justify disallowing the use of Thrown, but again, I think RAW, Thrown is allowed. Either way though - every rule (whether RAW or not) is 100% subject to the approval of the GM.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
If you're a strength based biohacker why not use shiurken for ranged? They use strength to attack and you can use your class abilities with them.

I was going to say because of the feat tax of getting Special Weapons, but I forgot that Biohackers can use the grooved shurikens with no penalty except half specialization bonus.

So I guess the real answer is because I want to take advantage of my dwarven advanced melee weapon proficiency and get my full specialization damage bonus, and the painclaw has the cool ability to flexibly inject different substances. Shurikens would be hard to use with the painclaw, which prevents you from using that hand for anything else, and the tactical shield, which only lets you reload, not wield another weapon.

Kvetchus wrote:


As far as returning or called - no, it would not return ready to use. If so, you could easily circumvent the donning aspect that normally requires a full action by simply "calling" it from your pocket.

I'm not sure why that makes a difference. I spent money to make that claw magical and avoid mundane problems like that.

Quote:

It shows up in your hand, but you'd still need to put the thing on properly. Neither of those fusions actually specifically say the weapon thus called/caught is immediately ready for use.

For nearly every other weapon, such specifics aren't necessary, and this weapon specifically indicates a full action to put on and a full round to take off. Remember, specific rules always override general rules.

Two handed weapons need two hands to use, and there's a specific action for shifting grips on them. If we're going by RAW, the Called fusion puts the weapon in your "hand," as you say, but you would still need another swift action to make it ready to use. I don't see how that is different from the painclaw, which also has specific rules for how to wield it.

As far as I can tell, if we're using a strict interpretation about the painclaw, we also need to apply the same diligence to two handed weapons. Is that your intent?

Furthermore, what about the glove weapons that don't require a full action to put on, that can seemingly be drawn like a normal weapon. Does a battleglove just appear in (not on) your hand and you can slap someone in the face with it, old tymey duel style for full effectiveness?


Dracomicron wrote:
Two handed weapons need two hands to use, and there's a specific action for shifting grips on them. If we're going by RAW, the Called fusion puts the weapon in your "hand," as you say, but you would still need another swift action to make it ready to use. I don't see how that is different from the painclaw, which also has specific rules for how to wield it.

The issue is with change grip. They made this rule to avoid players to change grip in the middle of a full attack (for multi arms characters, it can be pretty powerfull). But it generates tons of ridiculous issues like this one, where people assume that something is possible, but due to swift action starvation, they have to use a second round to be able to use it.

Other example is to quick draw your knife and hit the guy at melee range while you were holding a rifle.
Or to reload your machinegun (it asks for 2 grip changes).
Or, more obvious example is just to spend a full round to change grip twice... RAW, you can't.

So, yes, RAW, you are right. But most people don't care about change grip unless there is really a big issue with someone changing grip all the time and taking too much advantage out of it.


hmmm

A returning weapon flies through the air back to you after you make a thrown ranged attack with it. It returns to you just before your next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). <--- Makes it sound like its ready to go

Catching the weapon when it comes back takes no action. If you can’t catch it, or if you have moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which you threw it.<---- makes it sound like you're actively, physically catching it, and would have to put it on

Nothing would prevent you from catching it with 2 hands if you wanted.


SuperBidi wrote:


So, yes, RAW, you are right. But most people don't care about change grip unless there is really a big issue with someone changing grip all the time and taking too much advantage out of it.

My Vesk Soldier uses Change Grip to take his hand off his 2-handed weapon and make non-lethal unarmed attacks when he wants to take someone alive. Forever I have assumed that Called just brings the weapon back into a ready-to-use two-handed grip because that is the intent of the Called Fusion.

Some weapons get more practical use out of certain options than others; a 15' range disintigrator pistol with a level 3 sniper scope only gets 7.5' of bonus range, but also gets to ignore the first range increment penalty, effectively making the range 45' (and essentially making it effective in 80% of combat encounters), while a sniper rifle with a sniper scope adds hundreds of feet to the range in a game where nearly all battles in published adventures have been close quarters.

So...I am not seeing why the special rules for putting on a painclaw somehow make them see less utility from magical fusions designed to mitigate such issues. They are quality of life improvements that are not free; I think that they should work.


Dracomicron wrote:
Forever I have assumed that Called just brings the weapon back into a ready-to-use two-handed grip because that is the intent of the Called Fusion.

If you put called on armor spikes, it won't don the armor automatically. If you put called on a spike shield, it won't strap it around your arm. If you put called on a heavy machine gun with a tripod, it won't put the tripod at the proper position for you to shoot at enemies. No, Called just teleports the item in your hand(s). Most weapons just have to be wielded to be used, but some ask for more and Called doesn't give you the more.

Then, you can ask your GM. I completely understand that, with a Painclaw, you're not breaking everything. Still, RAW, it doesn't work, and if I was your GM, I would not allow it.


I would say you could throw it again after using a Called fusion to bring it back to you, but wielding it in melee would require you to put the thing back on with the full round action.

I know, it doesn't make a ton of sense when compared to just about every other weapon in the game, but it’s hard to ignore that full round to put the glove on bit.


Dracomicron wrote:


My Vesk Soldier uses Change Grip to take his hand off his 2-handed weapon and make non-lethal unarmed attacks when he wants to take someone alive.

Good news, Your Vesk doesn't have to do that. He has natural weapons and always counts as armed. Vesk are even specifically called out as being able to tailslap people (tailkwando?) You MAY use lethal damage with those attacks. You don't have to.

Quote:
So...I am not seeing why the special rules for putting on a painclaw somehow make them see less utility from magical fusions designed to mitigate such issues.

Throwing starknife is thrown, returning makes it fly back to you , you catch it in one hand and you've caught it the same way you attack with it.

Throwing greatsword is thrown. You catch it. Presumably with two hands and thats how you attack with it

Throwing painclaw is thrown. You catch it...but a painclaw you just caught in your hands isn't ready to use as a weapon.

I think the stronger argument is that it doesn't work, because returning physically flies back towards you. If it was a teleport to your hand or something that would be different.

I think it's also likely that you'll get more variety of weapons for this in the operations manual, so you'll probably get your high damage unwieldy weapon.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:


My Vesk Soldier uses Change Grip to take his hand off his 2-handed weapon and make non-lethal unarmed attacks when he wants to take someone alive.
Good news, Your Vesk doesn't have to do that. He has natural weapons and always counts as armed. Vesk are even specifically called out as being able to tailslap people (tailkwando?) You MAY use lethal damage with those attacks. You don't have to.

Unfortunately not true.

From Improved Unarmed Strike:
Normal: You don’t threaten any squares with unarmed attacks, and you must have a hand free to make an unarmed attack.

Even though the vesk counts as armed, it still otherwise follows the rules of an unarmed attack. It doesn't matter if you make a tail slap or a headbutt, RAW, you need a hand free. Regardless, non-Natural Weapons races also deal with this if they want to make an unarmed attack.

Quote:

Throwing painclaw is thrown. You catch it...but a painclaw you just caught in your hands isn't ready to use as a weapon.

I think the stronger argument is that it doesn't work, because returning physically flies back towards you. If it was a teleport to your hand or something that would be different.

Well, I already called out that Returning wouldn't work, but I'm thinking Called does, for the reasons you say.

Quote:
I think it's also likely that you'll get more variety of weapons for this in the operations manual, so you'll probably get your high damage unwieldy weapon.

Very true, but not particularly useful for my playtest game on Saturday.


Dracomicron wrote:


Even though the vesk counts as armed, it still otherwise follows the rules of an unarmed attack.
It doesn't matter if you make a tail slap or a headbutt, RAW, you need a hand free

That's a direct contradiction. A creature with natural weapons is not unarmed, they are armed. There's no rule or even argument that an armed creature follows the rules for an unarmed one.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic. Vesk gain a unique weapon specialization with their natural weapons at 3rd level, allowing them to add 1–1/2 × their character level to their damage rolls for their natural weapons (instead of just adding their character level, as usual).

I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that needing a free hand is not modified by this ability, because aside from the specifically called out changes, it refers back to making unarmed strikes, and needing a hand is one of the properties of unarmed strikes that are not called out as different.

While the next page says that some vesk martial arts use tail slaps, that could easily be the same as a human making AoOs with non-arm appendages, and be part of IUS.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:


Even though the vesk counts as armed, it still otherwise follows the rules of an unarmed attack.
It doesn't matter if you make a tail slap or a headbutt, RAW, you need a hand free
That's a direct contradiction. A creature with natural weapons is not unarmed, they are armed. There's no rule or even argument that an armed creature follows the rules for an unarmed one.

Well, specifically, no, they are NOT armed.

Vesk are always considered armed. They can deal 1d3 lethal damage with unarmed strikes and the attack doesn’t count as archaic.

Emphasis mine. They are considered armed, but they are not armed. Their unarmed attacks follow the rules of unarmed combat except where noted, or where being "armed" is a factor (mostly for the purposes of making an AoO, if I recall).

This is kinda like how Armor Storm soldiers are considred to be using a Battle Glove. They're not actually using one, otherwise 10th level Armor Storm soldiers would have to plug batteries into their wrists to operate their unarmed attack, as their Hammer Fist is the equivalent of a Power Battleglove.

If Natural Weapons mean that you are armed, no caveats like you say, then Improved Unarmed Strike wouldn't work with them. If it is still technically an unarmed attack, IUS works with it, but without it, you need a hand free, regardless of how you flavor your strike.


Dracomicron wrote:


Emphasis mine. They are considered armed, but they are not armed.

No. That isn't an actual thing


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:


Emphasis mine. They are considered armed, but they are not armed.

No. That isn't an actual thing

What isn't? Consideration?


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HammerJack wrote:

I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that needing a free hand is not modified by this ability, because aside from the specifically called out changes, it refers back to making unarmed strikes, and needing a hand is one of the properties of unarmed strikes that are not called out as different.

.

Besides the normal line of the improved unarmed strike feat, where is there a requirement to have a free hand?

Normal doesn't apply to someone that has a different similar special ability.

Unarmed Strike

An unarmed strike can be dealt with any limb or appendage. Unarmed strikes deal nonlethal damage, and the damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus to weapon damage rolls.

1d3 Bludgeoning Archaic, Nonlethal

This isn't a very good argument for a vesk where we don't know if its teeth or claws or what have you, but it gets absolutely silly with a Nuar or Vlaka where you know the attack isn't hand based. A space Minotaur needs a free hand to horn you? No.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

I think there's actually a pretty strong argument that needing a free hand is not modified by this ability, because aside from the specifically called out changes, it refers back to making unarmed strikes, and needing a hand is one of the properties of unarmed strikes that are not called out as different.

.

Besides the normal line of the improved unarmed strike feat, where is there a requirement to have a free hand?

There isn't, and doesn't really need to be. "Normal" is "This is what happens if you don't have this feat." You don't have the feat, your unarmed attacks need to have a free hand, unless you have a different ability that mentions, in game terms, the use of hands, or lack of same. Nowhere in the Nuar Natural Weapons entry does it say that you're using your horns. It logically follows, for sure, but RAW, you just get the option for 1d3 Lethal piercing damage, non-archaic.

Quote:
Normal doesn't apply to someone that has a different similar special ability.

Citation needed. Unless the special ability specifically and explicitly overrides the hand requirement mentioned in IUS, Normal applies to anyone who doesn't have IUS. Flavor text doesn't count.

I would welcome errata on this, for sure. Believe me. In my home game I would totally agree with you, but I don't have that luxury in Starfinder Society.


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Dracomicron wrote:


There isn't, and doesn't really need to be. "Normal" is "This is what happens if you don't have this feat." You don't have the feat, your unarmed attacks need to have a free hand, unless you have a different ability that mentions, in game terms, the use of hands, or lack of same.

This is making a HUGE assumption that there's only one way to get a result, and there's not. There's lots of ways to get the same result in this game.

Run: Normal: You move four times your land speed and gain the
flat-footed condition while running.

Operative: Uncanny Agility (Ex) 7th Level

You are immune to the flat-footed condition

So is that supposed to be unless you're running because that's a feat?

Quickdraw: Normal: You can draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your
base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as part of a move action,
and you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.

Starfinder backpack: When you seek an object stowed in the backpack, you find it immediately, allowing you to retrieve the object as if you were drawing a weapon. In addition, you can stow objects of 1 bulk or less in the pack as if you were sheathing a weapon.

Ysoki Cheek pouches: Cheek Pouches

Ysoki can store up to 1 cubic foot of items weighing up to 1 bulk in total in their cheek pouches, and they can transfer a single object between hand and cheek as a swift action.

Shot on the run: Normal: You can move only before or after an attack with a ranged weapon, not both

Spring attack Normal: You can move only before or after an attack,
not both.

Haste: When making a full attack, a hasted creature can also take a separate move action in order to move. The movement can occur before, after, or between the attacks from the full attack.

The normal line tells you a baseline standard. It is NOT saying that there's no other way to get that ability.

Quote:
Citation needed. Unless the special ability specifically and explicitly overrides the hand requirement mentioned in IUS, Normal applies to anyone who doesn't have IUS. Flavor text doesn't count.

Thats an argument that the rules say something, not the rules. You cannot claim raw and simply declare another bit of rules flavor.

The actual rules say you're always armed. (Or if you want to induce fission splitting hairs, considered armed, which is in no way shape or form at all distinguishable from being armed) Put a rifle in his hands and.. he's still armed. Thats what always means.

Quote:
I would welcome errata on this, for sure. Believe me. In my home game I would totally agree with you, but I don't have that luxury in Starfinder Society.

Starfinder society is not synonymous with crazy, overly legalistic, or just plain bad rules interpretation. That's a DM problem or a rules problem, not a starfinder society problem.

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