I would think it should follow the laws of trip and "Your target can’t be more than two sizes larger than you" but that's just unprinted sensibilities. RAW it does read as though it can be done to anything... That's silly!
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It's a corner case that probably won't come up much though. I feel like these actions were made with monsters using them against PCs in mind, not against other monsters. When do you as a GM wind up running those? And running 1st level creatures against dragons?
I guess you could use a summon monster ability as a PC, but I think most of the stuff it seems silly to trip only hits on a nat 20 anyway. And honestly, I'd rather have some weird cases that will never come up rather than get bogged down in size category gate keeping that usually just prevents PCs from doing cool things to monsters.
I'm glad to find this discussion in the GM section. I expect to run the game in a way that makes sense to my players. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a player critting a dragon with a hammer will knock that dragon over. I don't think they're expecting that either. I do think we're all expecting something though, so I would probably have the dragon do something that would cost it an action on its turn just like getting knocked down would. Maybe it would rear back on its hind legs. Maybe its right legs would buckle, and it would have to push itself back up before attacking. I can think of lots of cool ways to handle it that reward the player without breaking the game.
I don't need Paizo to spell out a rule for every little thing. My players don't have unreasonable expectations. If they did, we probably wouldn't play together.
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... Your players don't want to knock dragons around? Different strokes for different folks I guess. One of my favorite pathfinder 1 moments involved enlarging and casting fly on our brawler, and him supplexing one dragon into another dragon.
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I like the idea of a PC felling a colossal opponent with a blow of their hammer.
It just shouldn't be as easy as doing the same with a medium sized one.
It's a corner case that probably won't come up much though. I feel like these actions were made with monsters using them against PCs in mind, not against other monsters. When do you as a GM wind up running those? And running 1st level creatures against dragons?
I guess you could use a summon monster ability as a PC, but I think most of the stuff it seems silly to trip only hits on a nat 20 anyway. And honestly, I'd rather have some weird cases that will never come up rather than get bogged down in size category gate keeping that usually just prevents PCs from doing cool things to monsters.
Summons, Leadership, Planar Binding, Handle Animal, and Diplomacy can make that sort of thing come up lot.
Size categories should matter. It's come up a lot over the years we've played, and never bogged anything down. I'd rather the rules make some sort of sense in terms of simulating the world, and this sort of thing is pushing it too much toward board game land for me.
Those are all corner case options.
People summoning hyenas against dragons are foolish and desperate, there are better summons to use than those.
Leadership is no longer a thing in PF2, so that's a non-sequitur.
Planar Binding doesn't work with hyenas, unless they're fiendish/celestial or something, but are still relatively bad choices in general versus dragons. Plus, it's a ritual now, so that goes out the viability window that way.
Handle Animal would be a near impossible check against wild hyenas, and a very difficult one against tamed hyenas. You also can't reasonably expect the classes whom would do this (such as a Druid) to convince them as it is probably anathema to do so (especially for Animal Druids). Similar case with diplomacy, except now there is a "language" barrier.
Pathfinder, and by relation, D&D, have always been more of a tactical war game, which includes board game elements. If you hate games like this being like board games, you're about 30-40 years too late to complain about it.
So attacks with Knockdown just work, regardless of size, strength, #of legs, any of that.
This seems clearly wrong.
Push, much the same.
Very much not appreciating these kinds of rules.
I also have problems with these automatic abilities like Knockdown, Grab etc. Sure they make things interesting, but they can get absurd really quick. The lack of size modifiers is one issue, but so is the fact that there is simply no resisting at all. It doesn't matter if you're a level 1 Wizard or level 20 Monk, specializing in all combat maneuvers. If you're hit, you're knocked down. I'd much rather there be some kind of resistance here, maybe a save, aesthetics roll or bring back something like CMD. Then size, number of legs and the like can be a part of it. Yes, it'll be a bit more complex, and slower. But I think in this case it's worth it.
The lack of size modifiers is one issue, but so is the fact that there is simply no resisting at all. It doesn't matter if you're a level 1 Wizard or level 20 Monk, specializing in all combat maneuvers. If you're hit, you're knocked down.
A level 20 Monk is a lot harder to hit, and therefore resists being knocked down a lot better. I guess that's why they think it's not worth the extra complexity.
Yeah, the thing is you actually need to land a hit against whatever absurdly powerful creature. Also, I don't really see why it MUST be harder to trip a larger sized creature. If you're fighting a Rune Giant, you only come up to its ankles. Your blade might as well be a needle to it. How are you inflicting meaningful damage on it in the first place? If you can accept that you can hurt or kill the thing, why is weirder to topple it over by striking at a joint or pressure point or whatever?
Say my fighter crits with a hammer and knocks an enemy prone, or uses one of those feats with an auto-knockdown or whatever. If I use it on a medium sizes creature, maybe I just straight up bowled them over. But if I use it on a giant, maybe my crit strikes in the back of the thing's knee, causing its legs to buckle out from under it. If I use it on a dragon, maybe I hit its skull so hard the thing was effectively dazed and lost its balance.
If you can accept that you're capable of slaying a creature with a tooth pick or fists while targeting anything but its most vital weakspots (like eyeballs) that you practically shouldn't even be able to reach... Feels weird to get hung up on moving it around some.
Size modifiers weren't even well implemented for combat maneuvers last edition, as it used the same formula for an octopus grappling a human as an ogre disarming a pixie. Splitting them between fortitude and reflex has already done a lot to improve my simulationist streak.
...If you can accept that you can hurt or kill the thing, why is weirder to topple it over by striking at a joint or pressure point or whatever? ...
You've definitely got a point here. We're all letting go of reality to share the fantasy together. I think groups have different red lines about where the fantasy crosses into the realm of absurdity. For my groups, I expect that to change by campaign and by group of players. Some of them might not expect a dragon with a head, tail, 2 wings, and four legs to likely have anywhere on its body to fall to allow a knockdown. Some groups might find that idea cool. Hopefully whichever camp they're in, if I say the dragon is buckled instead and loses an action to regain position, they'll be good with it. Maybe not. No big deal. GMs adjust.
Yes, we are doing questionable things when fighting really large creatures. We've probably all grappled with this concept at some point and then handwaved over it. But can my fighter make a melee strike against a dragon flying overhead, too? Why not? He has an attack roll. The dragon is on the table top map. If he can attack a 30' giant and do damage or even knock him down, why not a 30' flying dragon? What does it matter he's out of reach or range if it's purely for fantasy and fun?
TLDR point is every group has their red lines for how fantasy should look and feel, so have fun.