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See title.
A feat to heighten one or two spells your are forced to take and can't swap is just bad. If the sorc has to take the spell and cant swap the damn thing, let the sorc heighten it as soon as he can.
Spontaneous Heightening doesn't cost a feat.
All full casters are 3 feats short of being a full character (and its consumed by their spellcasting proficiency bumps).
Edit, oh sorry, that was the name of the new 10th level feat. It was broken in update 1.6 out because bloodline advancement automatically consuming a feat slot was absolutely ridiculous (there just don't happen to be any other 10th level alternatives at this time) and meant that sorcerers got 2 fewer feats than other full casters (down to 6 out of 11 compared to a non-caster).
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This was not broken out in 1.6. This was never a part of the Sorc class. Bloodline Powers were broken out and feats were added in an earlier patch.
The feat is a new addition. But its bad. Unlike a Bard's extra heightening, it only applies to specific spells. For some bloodlines, it may only apply to 1 spell.
Being able to heighten a bloodline spell into higher level slots should be something the sorcerer can do. I mean, they cant swap the bloodline spells out for crying out loud. Having this be a feat, much less a 10th level feat, is just terrible.
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Absolutely. Although I can see how alternate approaches to Spontaneous Heightening can open up different approaches here. Like if instead of picking one spell line that you then gain all versions of, you instead pick specific spell level versions, Bloodline Spells could have rule that gave you all versions for picking them once.
Over-all, I feel dividing bloodlines by arcane/divine/occult is not working now, and bloodline spells themselves being narrow immutable list of 1/spell level isn't helping any.
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I know why it was done. Ive been in this playtest for a while. I read the blogs and the forum posts. I watch the twitch streams. Understanding why this feat was made does not add any value to the feat. It is still terrible.
Seems to me they should let sorcerers spontaneously heighten their bloodline spells without this feat then balance the bloodlines so they are all attractive.
Either way, there is no way I would ever waste a feat selection on this.
The answer is to balance the bloodlines (say, no more than X heightenable spells per bloodline) and give the feat for free to all sorcerers.
The feat as it stands is near useless for some sorcerers while being ok for others. That doesnt seem like it addresses their design goals in creating it.
Any way, thats all I plan on saying on this topic.
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Sorcerers should get autohightening by default for all spells.
It should be their strength due to lack of flexibility in spells known.
This was not broken out in 1.6. This was never a part of the Sorc class. Bloodline Powers were broken out and feats were added in an earlier patch.
I should stop posting things after 10pm.
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It should probably be pointed out the bad optics of presenting this mediocre to bad feat as the only update to the sorcerers (not counting a new bloodline) in the same update as the wizard suddenly getting a feat for free (giving them another feat slot) and giving them the ability to swap lower level spell slots for higher ones. These class updates aren't looked at in a vacuum, and the comparison doesn't make the sorcerers look very good.
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I personally (almost) love the feat. It adds veratility to the class in a way that directly applies to its focus, which Sorcerer sorely needs. It emphasizes spontaneous casting - which sets it apart from most other casters - as well as the bloodline - which is the central theme of the class.
Right now, very little separates same-spell-list-bloodlines like Angelic and Demonic; a couple powers you might not even take and a few spells you could learn anyway. Likewise, sorcerers don't have a lot to make them shine when compared to the other spellcaster that shares a bloodline's spell list. This feat helps fix both these things. It's a simple, fun way to make it feel like Sorcerer has something special from its bloodline.
HOWEVER
I agree that the ability is not worth the cost. Whether or not it would be a feat, level 10 is waaaay too late to get it. Instead of heightening a handful of spells, a level 10 feat could get you something way flashier and still thematic to your bloodline like dragon wings, abyssal wrath, or hellfire plume. Either a few levels earlier, not costing a feat, or preferably both could add a lot to the class.
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When something adds as much complexity as spontaneous heightening, I really want it to be optional, so players who've already hit their complexity ceiling can choose something else rather than slowing the game down for everyone.
It being optional also means its just a better feat for bloodlines with more heightenable spells rather than making the bloodlines with more heightenable spells always better. It leaves a lot more flexibility and design space open for bloodlines.
None of which is to say the sorcerer couldn't use some love, but I don't think this is the way to give it to them.
Cheers!
Landon
I believe it was Seifter who said that Sorcerors did not get Auto-heightening of bloodline spells because they did not want "heighten-ability" of bloodline spells to be a balancing point between the various bloodlines.
I can definitely get behind Sorcerer Bloodline Spells being Spontaneously Heightened by default rather than costing a class feat.
I would go one step further and give them the ability to pick up a feat to increase their Spontaneous Heightening capability by an additional 2 spells just like the Bard gets.
With all of that said though, there have been people suggesting that all of the Sorcerer's Spells should be Auto-Heightened, or at the very least be capable of Spontaneous Heightening. I disagree vehemently with that suggestion.
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I think the point made of bloodlines'spells needing to be balanced if the spontaneous heightening was default is good enough reason for it to cost a feat. Even if lots of characters take it, the idea is to not bloat things with unnecessary abilities. It could make a future bloodline not have a super thematic spell just because it isn't heighten-friendly. That's a great point and I agree completely.
Still, level 10 is too high if it costs a feat. There are too many feats by then that outweigh it in either power or coolness. Level 6 at least would make it an option to empower your bloodline if you don't like the second bloodline power you'd get. Level 4 would be in line with the spell-tradition-feats, but that also might make it too early (and at that point there's only one spell to potentially benefit). Considering you don't even get to choose the spells, it's a high cost.
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I'm in the "sorcerers need love, but auto heightening isn't the answer" camp. The Resonance test had some interesting ideas on this front. Making powers dramatically stronger and having spell points/focus run off charisma for everyone would make the sorc look more appealing for example.
HOWEVER
I agree that the ability is not worth the cost. Whether or not it would be a feat, level 10 is waaaay too late to get it. Instead of heightening a handful of spells, a level 10 feat could get you something way flashier and still thematic to your bloodline like dragon wings, abyssal wrath, or hellfire plume. Either a few levels earlier, not costing a feat, or preferably both could add a lot to the class.
See, I'd much rather take Bloodline Heightening than several of the 10th level powers. Dragon Wings on a bloodline that already has Fly baked in is a little disappointing, for example. Which to me is a good example of why Bloodline Heightening should be a feat you opt into, aside from the reasons Landon mentioned. I don't really think there are that many sorcerer feats that outweigh it either.
Now, you could definitely make a case for it coming online sooner. Realistically though, it does nothing at 2nd, probably does nothing to very little at 4th, might get some very niche use at 6th... I think it doesn't really seem worth a feat until 8th level, when there's 4 different spells it might affect. (Keeping in mind not every spell can be heightened, or gives an effect every level it is heightened.) I'd say 8th might be about right, maaaaybe 6th, but considering there aren't a lot of 10th level feats available and it is a feat that gets better as you level up I can see why it wound up where it did.
As a specific example, the Imperial Bloodline gets a lot of mileage out of the feat, and 10th level is a neat place for it to kick in-- Dimension Door REALLY spikes in power when it is upped to 5th level, and Dispel Magic at 3 different levels is nice. At 4th level the feat would do nothing, at 6th it would only affect fear. At 8th it would grant you 2 levels of dispel + greater invisibility, which is pretty good.
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See, I'd much rather take Bloodline Heightening than several of the 10th level powers. Dragon Wings on a bloodline that already has Fly baked in is a little disappointing, for example. Which to me is a good example of why Bloodline Heightening should be a feat you opt into, aside from the reasons Landon mentioned. I don't really think there are that many sorcerer feats that outweigh it either.
Now, you could definitely make a case for it coming online sooner. Realistically though, it does nothing at 2nd, probably does nothing to very little at 4th, might get some very niche use at 6th... I think it doesn't really seem worth a feat until 8th level, when there's 4 different spells it might affect. (Keeping in mind not every spell can be heightened, or gives an effect every level it is heightened.) I'd say 8th might be about right, maaaaybe 6th, but considering there aren't a lot of 10th level feats available and it is a feat that gets better as you level up I can see why it wound up where it did.
As a specific example, the Imperial Bloodline gets a lot of mileage out of the feat, and 10th level is a neat place for it to kick in-- Dimension Door REALLY spikes in power when it is upped to 5th level, and Dispel Magic at 3 different levels is nice. At 4th...
I agree that it shouldn't be free (see why last post on why my mind changed). I also like the opt-in nature of things in Ikeafinder, so having it as a feat that makes that particular character more in tune with their bloodline where another character might reject it completely is perfectly fine.
You're right that at 2nd does nothing and 4th does little or nothing. Remember though that the ability to spontaneously heighten things comes online at 3rd level, when casters still barely have a use for them in most cases. The usability isn't entirely the issue. And if your bloodline doesn't offer anything good to heighten until later, you can delay taking the feat; the opt-in nature makes it so it can be your 10th level feat if you want. Right now it's not so much rewarding characters that would wait anyway so much as limiting characters who could use it early but also want other feats.
In another light, limiting feats to later levels encourages multiclassing feats. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore the new multiclass system. However, as other threads have pointed out, multiclassing is almost too good of an option for some classes where low level feats are subpar.
One example was a Bard could take extra cantrips or just multiclass into another spellcasting class to get cantrips AND a skill or two AND potentially other abilities. Since Sorcerer shares a primary stat anyway and offers any spell list it wants, this is kind of lopsided. Bloodline heightening is a great way to add something cool and useful at lower levels that scales with your character, making it appealing without being overpowering.
See, I'd much rather take Bloodline Heightening than several of the 10th level powers. Dragon Wings on a bloodline that already has Fly baked in is a little disappointing, for example. Which to me is a good example of why Bloodline Heightening should be a feat you opt into, aside from the reasons Landon mentioned. I don't really think there are that many sorcerer feats that outweigh it either.
Now, you could definitely make a case for it coming online sooner. Realistically though, it does nothing at 2nd, probably does nothing to very little at 4th, might get some very niche use at 6th... I think it doesn't really seem worth a feat until 8th level, when there's 4 different spells it might affect. (Keeping in mind not every spell can be heightened, or gives an effect every level it is heightened.) I'd say 8th might be about right, maaaaybe 6th, but considering there aren't a lot of 10th level feats available and it is a feat that gets better as you level up I can see why it wound up where it did.
As a specific example, the Imperial Bloodline gets a lot of mileage out of the feat, and 10th level is a neat place for it to kick in-- Dimension Door REALLY spikes in power when it is upped to 5th level, and Dispel Magic at 3 different levels is nice. At 4th...
I agree that it shouldn't be free (see why last post on why my mind changed). I also like the opt-in nature of things in Ikeafinder, so having it as a feat that makes that particular character more in tune with their bloodline where another character might reject it completely is perfectly fine.
You're right that at 2nd does nothing and 4th does little or nothing. Remember though that the ability to spontaneously heighten things comes online at 3rd level, when casters still barely have a use for them in most cases. The usability isn't entirely the issue. And if your bloodline doesn't offer anything good to heighten until later, you can delay taking the feat; the opt-in nature makes it so it can be your 10th level...
All fair points. Honestly, I think the sorcerer in general could use some tuning up-- several class feats don't feel punchy enough, and some like magical senses feel like they should be skill feats.
But to me, that is a case to make those feats better. I certainly don't think this changes my mind that letting the feat come online before 6th is worth doing. Otherwise it just reminds of annoying feat taxes or trees where you basically had "dead levels" for a given feat.
It isn't like we have a lot of 6th level feats competing for this slot, anyway.
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I'd definately have to toss my hat in support of sorcs getting automatic heightening on all of their spells, especially now with wizards getting quick prep for free.
The appeal of the sorcerer has always been their focus and power in the narrow range of spells they know, which in 3.P was represented through spammability. In practice, with high optimization, wizards caught up to them fine, but that's a whole other subject not related to pf 2e.
The design principle of 2e here is to prevent mages from solving literally all problems with spells like in the old days, which is partly why we have no bonus spells based on casting score. Spammable spell effects now are very much in the land of bards or 20th level casters. With that in mind, we are basically left with two(and a half) primary options to retain this feeling of specialization: making them the sole users of metamagic (or give them class abilities that make them far better at it than everyone else), and/or allow them to heighten any known spell. The former sounds bluh to me, since all casting classes imo should have metamagic, and I wasn't super impressed by how it worked in 5e, while auto heighten is intuitive, easy, and feels more "natural" to a class who's selling point is innate power
I'd definately have to toss my hat in support of sorcs getting automatic heightening on all of their spells, especially now with wizards getting quick prep for free.
The appeal of the sorcerer has always been their focus and power in the narrow range of spells they know, which in 3.P was represented through spammability. In practice, with high optimization, wizards caught up to them fine, but that's a whole other subject not related to pf 2e.
The design principle of 2e here is to prevent mages from solving literally all problems with spells like in the old days, which is partly why we have no bonus spells based on casting score. Spammable spell effects now are very much in the land of bards or 20th level casters. With that in mind, we are basically left with two(and a half) primary options to retain this feeling of specialization: making them the sole users of metamagic (or give them class abilities that make them far better at it than everyone else), and/or allow them to heighten any known spell. The former sounds bluh to me, since all casting classes imo should have metamagic, and I wasn't super impressed by how it worked in 5e, while auto heighten is intuitive, easy, and feels more "natural" to a class who's selling point is innate power
By automatic heightening, do you mean that they get spontaneous casting on all spells, or that a 5th level sorcerer casts a 3rd level magic missile using a 1st level spellslot?
The former has been attempted during internal testing and found to both be kind of overpowered but also introducing too many decision points.
The latter wouldn't be as bad for decision making in play, though it would mean the sorcerer should only pick heightenable spells a la the 5e Warlock. But I don't think it is intuitive-- read my first sentence again for me. I'm sure folks could get used to it, but it does add another step to how that process works. And I think it would almost certainly feel overpowered in practice.
Currently, a 18th level sorcerer who spontaneous heightens fireball in every available spellslot has 392d6 of damage in one day. They'd be doing 560d6 with auto-heightening. That gives them so much more staying power than other casters it is crazy. If that's a viable balance point, I think you might as well just give Sorcerers 40-50% more spell slots than wizards. It basically achieves the same result, but doesn't introduce an additional step for every spell that is cast.
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By automatic heightening, do you mean that they get spontaneous casting on all spells, or that a 5th level sorcerer casts a 3rd level magic missile using a 1st level spellslot?
I was implying the former, which I can hardly see being overpowered with the wizard being able to swap prepared spells. Anyone who supports the latter is downright insane!
I must admit, in my haste to get that post out before work, I forgot a third option that I'm actually quite fond of: allowing sorcerers to downcast, in a similar way that some psychic spells, like Mind Thrust, worked in pathfinder. It still requires the sorcerer to take fireball at their highest spell level if they want the biggest boom, but feels less like you're getting ripped off than if you needed to take fireball, fireball +1, fireball +2, etc
By automatic heightening, do you mean that they get spontaneous casting on all spells, or that a 5th level sorcerer casts a 3rd level magic missile using a 1st level spellslot?
I was implying the former, which I can hardly see being overpowered with the wizard being able to swap prepared spells. Anyone who supports the latter is downright insane!
OK, cool. So my impression was the cognitive load and spell selection balance issues were a bigger problem than it making the sorcerer overpowered, but it did seem like it gave the sorcerer REALLY good options for spells like Summon Monster and Dispel Magic. Currently the sorcerer can do that, just with some opportunity cost.
I must admit, in my haste to get that post out before work, I forgot a third option that I'm actually quite fond of: allowing sorcerers to downcast, in a similar way that some psychic spells, like Mind Thrust, worked in pathfinder. It still requires the sorcerer to take fireball at their highest spell level if they want the biggest boom, but feels less like you're getting ripped off than if you needed to take fireball, fireball +1, fireball +2, etc
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
Now, undercasting in a addition to the current Spont H. model would be a boon,though I'm not sure how much of one. Honestly, it feels like you're better off just learning a higher level blast than taking fireball +X most of the time, so the undercasting thing has limited appeal.
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Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
Hey, I understood that one!
#MarkPleaseExplainToMeLikeImA3yearOld
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
Sorry if I completely missed it, but without the ability to undercast, isn't the sorcerer even more limited by the combination of spontaneous heightening and 3 spells known per level? For example, suppose I already had three 4th level spells known, wanted Fly, but couldn't learn it until I could cast 7th level spells (since for some reason those three 4th levels were important enough not to swap out at level up). So now I can cast the 7th level hour-long version of Fly up to 4 times per day, but never the lower level version, since spontaneous heightening only allows you to cast higher level versions of spells, not lower ones.
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Sorry if I completely missed it, but without the ability to undercast, isn't the sorcerer even more limited by the combination of spontaneous heightening and 3 spells known per level? For example, suppose I already had three 4th level spells known, wanted Fly, but couldn't learn it until I could cast 7th level spells (since for some reason those three 4th levels were important enough not to swap out at level up). So now I can cast the 7th level hour-long version of Fly up to 4 times per day, but never the lower level version, since spontaneous heightening only allows you to cast higher level versions of spells, not lower ones.
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
If a 4th level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable to you than a 7th level spell in your repertoire as in that example (or in general if a lower level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable than your highest level spell) then undercasting is more effective in that case, but typically this should not be the case, as higher level spells tend to be more powerful.
If a 4th level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable to you than a 7th level spell in your repertoire as in that example (or in general if a lower level spell in your...Sorry if I completely missed it, but without the ability to undercast, isn't the sorcerer even more limited by the combination of spontaneous heightening and 3 spells known per level? For example, suppose I already had three 4th level spells known, wanted Fly, but couldn't learn it until I could cast 7th level spells (since for some reason those three 4th levels were important enough not to swap out at level up). So now I can cast the 7th level hour-long version of Fly up to 4 times per day, but never the lower level version, since spontaneous heightening only allows you to cast higher level versions of spells, not lower ones.
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
Thank you for the response. Fly with its 4th level and 7th level versions was just the first utility spell to come to mind. My more general concern has been that in many of these discussions about spontaneous heightening, it seems that there is an assumption that the sorcerer has more low level spells than it does, and can always learn the spells they want at the lowest level available, which isn't really the case. Unlike the wizard, the sorcerer can only learn spells at a level the spell can be cast at (base or heightened), so a lack of undercasting feels like it hamstrings the sorcerer even further.
Mark Seifter or Deadmanwalking posted some really complex analysis of why the current spontaneous heightening model is actually stronger for sorcs than undercasting would be. I honestly didn't understand it well enough to repeat it, though.
That was me. Here's a quick version with just an example, none of the analysis:
Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
With spont heighten, you have to spend a 7th and a 4th level spell in your repertoire to do that (assuming you want to keep a single target version), but you can if you want.
That's assuming you wouldn't give more spells known of highest level with undercasting. Currently with spontaneous heightening you have about 2 extra spells known of up to highest level.
With undercasting you could add 2 extra spells know of up to your highest level. Then in your example you'd have the highest level Dispel, Summon Monster, your bloodline spell, and two other spells of your choice.
Thanks for the explaination, Mark! That makes a lot of sense, and perhaps it can put my sorcerer player's mind at ease.
I do wonder if a bit of her saltiness though is that pretty much half the party (my alchemist and my girlfriend's ranger) got a lot of really cool stuff in 1.6, while sorcerers got a (temporary) nerf in the resonance test, due to focus being a more limited resource than focus
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Suppose you are a level 13 sorcerer and you want to have a max level summon monster and a max level dispel because you like to summon things and dispel enemy magic.
With undercasting, you can do it, but that takes all your 7th-level spells in your repertoire other than bloodline, so you don't gain any "new" spells from leveling up.
With spont heighten, you can do it without using any of your 7th-level spells in your repertoire.
Now suppose you also wanted 7th-level paralyze for some AoE save or lose action.
With undercasting, you just can't do it. You've run out of 7th-level options.
...
If a 4th level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable to you than a 7th level spell in your repertoire as in that example (or in general if a lower level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable than your highest level spell) then undercasting is more effective in that case, but typically this should not be the case, as higher level spells tend to be more powerful.
I've posted on this before (here), but after all this time I'm still baffled by how this approach doesn't really evade the "optimization pressure on spell choices" problem it purportedly is designed to avoid... It just displaces the pressure onto low level spells (assuming same logic of maximizing # of Spell Level versions), which are the "most bang for the buck" to apply Spontaneous Heighten to, at the opportunity cost of all the other cool things low level spells could do (if not subsumed to goal of "Heighten fodder").
And in the context of daily-prepared choice of SpontHeighten, you are left with choosing your "best bang for buck" low level spell OR if you choose a different spell you ONLY know the lowest level version of the spell you usually use with SpontHeighten. Thus creating pressure to avoid actually changing SpontHeighten spells on daily basis, or for players who want to try to build for that, creating EVEN more pressure on other low level spell slots to have "most bang for the buck" (good Heighten options). EDIT: Or as poster Gavmania pointed out, real diversity of SpontHeighten choices is reduced to scope of 'down-time', where over-all adventuring 'power' is non-factor vs. achieving down-time task.
I don't even know why the base assumption is built on full-chain, every-single-possible-Spell Level version (as your chosen examples of Dispel/Summon), when it's trivially easy to imagine casters desiring 2 or 3 versions but not especially caring about EVERY version. My older post went into alternatives that diverge from "whole chain" assumption, accounting for higher Spell Level granularity's amenity to optimization by giving 1/2 the total potential spell levels if not committing to full chain (on even/odd level basis, which doesn't always align 100% to desired Heighten tiers... also allowing "3/4" or "1/1" (compared to current) version if you commit to one or two full chains).
EDIT: Maximizing granularity isn't even per se compelling, but it addresses the base assumption of optimality of maximizing # of spell versions (virtual spells known): When choice of spell (chain) doesn't dictate # of virtual spells known gained, then pressure of type of spells to designate for SpontHeighten disappears, and spells with just 2 versions can be equally good choices for it, rather than SpontHeighten rarely seeing usage with "2 version" spells... The current version in fact over-pushing Sorcerors to know/use Dispel, Summon, etc, at opportunity cost of other spells known. The rationale being "low level spells known don't matter". Which even if we accept, IMHO still cheapens the game, reduces Sorceror to narrow schtick, and makes mockery of daily SpontHeighten choice mechanic.
Irregardless of that granularity vs chain issue, I don't understand why "unidirectional" approach is so blindly assumed, i.e. only Heightening or only Undercasting. Allowing bi-directional Spell Level versioning suddenly makes Mid-Level spells an interesting choice for something like SpontHeighten, that also allows more viability in utility of regular "base" SpellKnown when NOT chosen for daily SpontHeighten. That also would further what is purportedly the main goal of all this, reducing optimization pressure on spell choices of specific Spell Level. Now ALL Spell Levels' Spells Known can be Up+Down-scaled their entire "spell chain", swappable on daily basis. Sure, some people could respond by choosing EVERY SINGLE Spell Known on basis of large range of Heighten Versions, but since you're limited to 2 (or X) SpontHeighten per day, you never directly benefit from all of those, and if cool spells exist without many or any Heighten tiers, it's probable many people will still choose them, because they WILL still have plenty of other options, more than they can regularly use.
EDIT: Moving away from unidirectional "Heighten" Assumption also would imply adjusting the name of Spontaneous Heighten ability, which frankly is confusing in it's distinction vs. any/all other real or potential mechanics which may combine Spontaneous casting and Heighten (even situational ala Spontaneous Substitution Cure/SNA/Heal/StaveSpell) ...Thus I proposed calling SpontHeighten ability "Flux Magic", which goes better with bi-direction Spell Level variation, although doesn't even strictly hinge on being bi-directional, it's just a more specific name to refer to that specific ability. The specific name doesn't matter as much as more clearly differentiating the specific class ability from the broader mechanical territory of Spontaneous Casting + Heighten as such, which needn't be uniquely equated with this one class ability.
I think it's just strange how the SpontHeighten design process was so casually yoked to servicing Dispel & Summons, which not every caster is even interested in.
IMHO DispelMagic should just be inherently fully Overcast-able, without equating that to actually distinct Spells Known of different Spell Levels, if all that is affecting is SpellLevel check for Dispel. I.e. Dispel is 3rd Level Spell Known that can use any Spell Level Slot of 3rd or higher. That frees SpontHeighten to focus on broader array of use cases.
Really, this ties into people's question/concern about "what if I cast all my low level slots, but just want to use high level slot to cast low-spell for same effect?" You wouldn't get any different effect from doing that unless you are using actual Heighten mechanic, but the only difference vs "normal" spell slot would be it counts as higher level spell slot for purpose of Dispelling, i.e. if you are casting Dispel or somebody casts Dispel against your spell. This gives some of the popularly demanded "Sorcs good at Heightening for all spells" effect, but only restricted to Counteract checks... Access to actually different effects dependent on knowing distinct versions or SpontHeighten or similar mechanics.
Not strictly required, but Dispel could have unique rules re: SpontHeighten ability, such that designating it for SpontHeighten allows access to broad level range of similar-themed spells including Globe of Invulnerability, Anti-Magic Field and Disjunction (or vice-versa, those spells could be undercast as simple Dispel). That would require unique rules for this case, either in SpontHeighten/Flux Magic rules or in the spell descriptions explaining how they relate to eachother vis-a-vis SpontHeighten/FluxMagic, but IMHO the game is over-all better served by a unique exception catering to this specific case (which can be ignored if not using SpontHeighten with these spells) than by forcing everything else into a mold to serve the specific needs of Dispel.
That would also allow casters who designate Dispel for SpontHeighten to potentially gain qualitatively different effects, which ironically for being poster-child of SpontHeighten, they lack vs. other spells with distinct effects per Heighten tier. Really, the same could be applied to other spells... Invisibility only having 2 Heighten versions seems ridiculous given how many spells are directly related to Invisibility. But why not tie together Invisibility with Invisibility Cloak and Invisibility Sphere etc in regards to SpontHeighten? That would mean there could be two or more potential functions at given Spell Level considering how they overlap, but perfectly intuitive IMHO. Now without SpontHeighten/Flux Magic you would be limited to only the same effect with higher Counteract score, OR in case of Wizards the given highten tier for specific spell i.e. Invisibility (2nd/4th) not Cloak/Sphere/etc, but the groups of spells could be linked to allow similar scalability across all levels with SpontHeighten/FluxMagic... Reducing the "some spells offer more SpontHeighten options than others" problem, while not giving a massive present to casters outside of SpontHeighten/FluxMagic mechanic.
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I still think that the fact they got rid of all those 'xxx I-IX', 'Greater xxx' and 'Minor xxx' only for having the poor Sorcerer and the poor Bard stuck to the old version of 'learn the same spell over and over if you want to do something different with it' is... baffling at best.
I mean, Clerics and Druids learn all common spells FOR FREE. All of them.
And Wizards have only to buy (or find) Summon Monster (I) once to have all versions available to them.
Sorcerers and Bards, with their 'huge' selection of 3 (+ 1 forced by Bloodline) spells known per level have to burn their resources if they want to have some variety WITH THE SAME SPELL - either selecting the same spell over and over or using a 'spontaneous' ability which they have to PREPARE in the morning. They are already shafted with the Beta Core spells only, with more rulebooks (and so, more spells available) in the future their possibilities will be a joke.
Meanwhile, decision paralysis outside of combat is good, fine and balanced it seems, since the Wizard can swap in 10 minutes one of their prepared spells, again and again and again.
And just to solve a doubt of mine, you cannot use a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot without metamagic (like, casting an unscaled 1st level Magic Missile in a 3rd level slot), am I right ? If this is the case, the supposed versatility of a Spontaneous caster is even lower than in the previous editions...
If a 4th level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable to you than a 7th level spell in your repertoire as in [Bluescale's] example (or in general if a lower level spell in your repertoire is often more valuable than your highest level spell) then undercasting is more effective in that case, but typically this should not be the case, as higher level spells tend to be more powerful.
So that may over-all be the case, but why the need to choose between those in first place? Why is unidirectionality (Up or Down) assumed frame of debate in the first place, ignoring ambi-directionality? Honest question, if I missed direct addressing of that.
Obviously, I've written about other alternatives alot more in depth, but this basic issue's obviousness still perplexes me why it wasn't considered vs Unidirectionality. It just feels like your entire approach ends up servicing only a few spells used in certain way - Dispel, Summons, etc, that will be learned in lowest possible slot and higher level spells are just not relevant choices re: SpontHeighten (making it's daily prep somewhat a false choice, or very distorting at least).
Over-all, I feel dividing bloodlines by arcane/divine/occult is not working now, and bloodline spells themselves being narrow immutable list of 1/spell level isn't helping any.
Checking back in on this thread, I wanted to follow up on this point.
I feel like there has been an un-checked assumption that classes must always be ALL arcane or ALL divine etc.In 1stEd this manifested in Celestial Bloodline casting their few normally divine spells "as arcane".
In 2ndEd this manifest as Celestial Bloodline casting all divine spells. Yet it seems un-necessarily restrictive.
I'm not sure what is the inherent problem of a class most casting e.g. arcane spells but with some divine spells/powers on side.
Even using the same "slots", I don't see what fundamental reason there is to assuming slots can only be one type of magic.
Even if spells that can be cast with those slots are predominantly one or the other, no harm done saying some spells are different type.
Meanwhile, decision paralysis outside of combat is good, fine and balanced it seems, since the Wizard can swap in 10 minutes one of their prepared spells, again and again and again.
I think that wizard is a class that people can opt into if they want to micromanage their spells over the course of the day. It is a class for people who won't feel that analysis paralysis. It is not necessarily a good baseline for the whole game in terms of complexity.
I still think that the fact they got rid of all those 'xxx I-IX', 'Greater xxx' and 'Minor xxx' only for having the poor Sorcerer and the poor Bard stuck to the old version of 'learn the same spell over and over if you want to do something different with it' is... baffling at best.
I mean, Clerics and Druids learn all common spells FOR FREE. All of them.
And Wizards have only to buy (or find) Summon Monster (I) once to have all versions available to them.
Sorcerers and Bards, with their 'huge' selection of 3 (+ 1 forced by Bloodline) spells known per level have to burn their resources if they want to have some variety WITH THE SAME SPELL - either selecting the same spell over and over or using a 'spontaneous' ability which they have to PREPARE in the morning. They are already shafted with the Beta Core spells only, with more rulebooks (and so, more spells available) in the future their possibilities will be a joke.
Meanwhile, decision paralysis outside of combat is good, fine and balanced it seems, since the Wizard can swap in 10 minutes one of their prepared spells, again and again and again.
And just to solve a doubt of mine, you cannot use a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot without metamagic (like, casting an unscaled 1st level Magic Missile in a 3rd level slot), am I right ? If this is the case, the supposed versatility of a Spontaneous caster is even lower than in the previous editions...
So the issue with this perspective is that spontaneous casters actually made far bigger gains this edition than prepared casters. A wizard gained the ability to cast summoner monster 1-9 by just taking one spell, or get greater invisibility by just just taking one spell. This only cost them gold before, so it really isn't a meaningful new resource. Druids and clerics didn't even pay that; they gained nothing from the new heightening mechanics.
Sorcerers meanwhile actually effectively gain more spells than they did before. What's more, they gained the ability to swap spells known daily like an arcanist does. I'm not saying that they have it better than PF2 prepared casters, but they definitely have it better than PF1 spontaneous.