How would you balance Eldritch Scoundrel + Sylvan Trickster?

[Zautos']

So they don't stack. How would you remove to make this combination balanced?

The closest thing to this would be hexcrafter magus I think.

[baggageboy]

Looking at it the only feature that really you'd be double dipping from the original in uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge. Sylvan trickster does alter rouge talents whereas Eldritch scoundrel loses half of those. I can't see the combination being too overly powerful, but losing something else in place of the dodges should be enough to balance out the extra gain.

Maybe lose evasion, but make it available as one of your very limited talents you can choose.

[Meirril]

First thing first, officially you can't do this. So really this belongs in the Homebrew subforum.

That said, Sylvan Trickster is a bit weak. Eldritch Scoundrel is vastly different from a normal rogue. Unfortunately the two archetypes overlap in what they replace. Considering that Eldritch Scoundrel departs the most from Rogue I'd tend to favor it in any exchange.

Wild Empathy is a weak ability, so force the first level rogue to use their feat to gain it. That should hurt this rogue enough that it will come out to be about the same as Trapfinding. If you think this is overkill, it needs to be. After all, we're planning on making Witch Hexes available to the Rogue, and they are very powerful replacements for Rogue Talents.

Since Sylvan Trickster replaces Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge lets force the Rogue to buy those abilities back at 4th and 12th level with their Rogue Talents to gain Resist Nature's Lure at 4th and Fey Resistance at 12th. This mean the first Rogue Talent this Rogue would get to pick is at 8th level, then the second at 16th and the final one at 20th.

Those 3 rogue talents can be witch hexes, as outlined in Sylvan Trickster.

The rogue isn't allowed to trade Feats for more Rogue Talents. Think of it as punishment for trying to do things that are illegal. <3

[Zautos']

what do you think about removing one talent and evasion?

[Wonderstell]

The two archetypes only overlap on Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
One of the archetypes provide you with a way to regain Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.

The solution seems pretty clear. Just 'force' the player to use their Rogue Talents at lv 4 & 12 to pick up Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Just like a Qinggong monk would do.

[baggageboy]

I like wonderstells solution provided you didn't actually get uncanny dodge and simply lost the talents at the appropriate levels. Meirril's seems far to punative. No it's not a "legal" combination, but it's very flavorful and shouldn't be too powerful. That being said, you would need to have a discussion with the player to ensure that they wouldn't be dipping this combination and getting out again be for paying the costs.

[Meirril]

Wonderstell wrote:

The two archetypes only overlap on Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.

One of the archetypes provide you with a way to regain Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.

The solution seems pretty clear. Just 'force' the player to use their Rogue Talents at lv 4 & 12 to pick up Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Just like a Qinggong monk would do.

Both archetypes also give up Trap Finding.

[Meirril]

baggageboy wrote:

I like wonderstells solution provided you didn't actually get uncanny dodge and simply lost the talents at the appropriate levels. Meirril's seems far to punative. No it's not a "legal" combination, but it's very flavorful and shouldn't be too powerful. That being said, you would need to have a discussion with the player to ensure that they wouldn't be dipping this combination and getting out again be for paying the costs.

You realize the only difference between what Wondersell and I said is that I demanded a feat to pay for the double tradeoff on Trap Finding? Eldritch Scoundrel gives up 5 Rogue Tricks, the allowance all 3 of us agree on gives up 2 of the remaining tricks, which only leaves 3 rogue tricks left over 20 levels to use for witch hexes or actual rogue abilities.

Saying what I asked for is too harsh...the difference is 1 feat.

[Meirril]

Ugh. And I made a mistake. Sylvan trades away Trap Finding, Eldritch trades away Trap Sense. My bad. So drop the extra feat tax at level one.

[baggageboy]

You also didn't want to allow them to buy back talents with feats. If it is done in a way that a player buys uncanny dodge as a talent at 4th level but gains no benefits (or really they get nature's allure) and they are allowed to buy talents with feats, they can pick up their first hex at level 5 if they want to.

On the other hand if they don't even gain their first talent until level 8 and can't buy talents with feats they will have to wait a very long time before seeing the real draw of the sylvan trickser which is the hexes.

The first way allows a player to have more choices and a smoother progression in the way the character performs.

[Meirril]

...the only way the Eldritch Scoundrel buys back Evasion and Improved Evasion (the 2 abilities that the Rogue needs to trade away for both Archetypes) is by spending Rogue Talents. There is no option to buy them back with feats.

[DeathlessOne]

Meirril wrote:

...the only way the Eldritch Scoundrel buys back Evasion and Improved Evasion (the 2 abilities that the Rogue needs to trade away for both Archetypes) is by spending Rogue Talents. There is no option to buy them back with feats.

Im pretty sure it was implied that the character would spend character feats to pick up the Extra Rogue Talent feat. I see nothing wrong with that, nor allowing both archetypes at the same time. You are effectively creating an Arcane trickster with Hexes and a cap of 6th level spells on one chassis, with less sneak attack (on average).