Of Hornbows and Erastil

[Ucro]

Hornbow, Orc
Price 130 gp; Type exotic

Larger even than a longbow, these bows are often made from the horns of great beasts. Though they have a shorter range than other bows, their greater destructive power is highly favored by orcs and their kin. All hornbows are composite bows and can be modified to benefit from high Strength scores in the same way as other composite bows. Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows.

Does this mean that Hornbows would be considered a favored weapon by Erastil for the purposes of class archetypes like the Paladin's Tempered Champion? An Archetype that specifically states its feats such as weapon focus require the weapon in question to be the deities favored weapon.

[Firebug]

Ucro wrote:

Hornbow, Orc

Price 130 gp; Type exotic

Larger even than a longbow, these bows are often made from the horns of great beasts. Though they have a shorter range than other bows, their greater destructive power is highly favored by orcs and their kin. All hornbows are composite bows and can be modified to benefit from high Strength scores in the same way as other composite bows. Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows.

Does this mean that Hornbows would be considered a favored weapon by Erastil for the purposes of class archetypes like the Paladin's Tempered Champion? An Archetype that specifically states its feats such as weapon focus require the weapon in question to be the deities favored weapon.

The way I read it, Erastil's favored weapon would have to be both longbow and shortbow to get hornbow for free. Its not. If it said "Any effect that applies to either longbows or shortbows also applies to hornbows" then sure.

[Isabelle Lee]

Firebug wrote:

The way I read it, Erastil's favored weapon would have to be both longbow and shortbow to get hornbow for free. Its not. If it said "Any effect that applies to either longbows or shortbows also applies to hornbows" then sure.

This is both correct and intended. ^_^

[Azothath]

I suppose that's the long and short of it =^..^=

[pad300]

I didn't realize that Elven Weapon Familiarity gave you Hornbow proficiency for free, "proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows)". Weird seeming, but cool.

[Melkiador]

Elves practice longbows from a young age where they are really too little to be using them. They are able to apply these experiences to using the hornbow.

[Magicdealer]

Well...

"Proficiency does not affect the weapons in which one is proficient. So you need to take EWP to get proficiency with the hornbow."

last post of this thread:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uw8j&page=1?FAQ-Is-it-intended-that-the-h ornbow-be-freely

Basically, proficiency is something that affects the user, not the bow, so you still need the feat.

[Val'bryn2]

That's stupid. By that logic, Weapon Focus doesn't help, because that doesn't affect the bow, it's the user who aims better.

[Java Man]

I would say that elves have weapon prof longbow and weapon prof shortbow. Neither of these is "Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows." So no free proficiency in hornbow for elves.

[Melkiador]

Java Man wrote:

I would say that elves have weapon prof longbow and weapon prof shortbow. Neither of these is "Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows." So no free proficiency in hornbow for elves.

No. They have one ability that gives proficiency in both. So that ability would also apply to the hornbow and thus give proficiency.

[Java Man]

Hmm, I see how that would vary depending on which level/ scale you look from.

But is this different from a fighter who has one feature giving them proficiency in both long and shortbow?

[Melkiador]

It’s an old discussion had in another thread. Some dev posted a really twisted excuse for why it doesn’t work.

But it’s highly unlikely it was originally intended to grant free proficiency, anyway. Unless you are a slave to RAW, it should work as intended.

[Magicdealer]

I mean, I think it's stupid too, but I wouldn't call following a dev clarification on a thing being 'a slave to RAW' either.

[LordKailas]

I wonder then about Zen Archer. It has a similar ability that half-elves get granting proficiency longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows.

[Cavall]

Is proficiency an "effect?"

According to the exotic and martial weapon proficiency feats...

"Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally"

"Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.'

Is normal an effect? Is no longer being penalized an effect?

I dont think elves can use an orc weapon by grace of being elves. Some orcs cant even use hornbows by grace of being orcs. I do not see a RAW or a RAI here for that.

[Gray Warden]

As Isabelle has stated in the past, the sentence:

"Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows"

has to be read as:

"Any effect that applies to any bows, not crossbows, also applies to hornbows"

And this interpretation is part of the RAW. So, do elves get proficiency in Longbows and Shortbows because proficient in any bow? I don't think so: elves get proficiency in those bows because traditionally associated to those specific weapons. The same way having Weapon Focus[Longbow] and Weapon Focus[Shortbow] in no way implies also getting Weapon Focus[Hornbow] for free.

[blahpers]

It was a very strained ruling--the kind one might make when one realizes that they "done goofed", has what they want it to mean in mind, realizes that the text doesn't support their desired meaning, doesn't give a damn, doesn't want to have to issue a FAQ an erratum, and refuses to let little things like "consistency in rules design", "plain meaning", and "the English language" get in the way of their dreams.

You know, that sort of ruling.

Pig's Note: The comparison mentioned above is hypothetical and presented purely for illustrative purposes.

[Lelomenia]

‘Martial Weapon Proficiency’ applies to both longbows AND shortbows. I don’t think it implicitly grants you a random exotic weapon proficiency as well.