Does the balance of the three Rogue's Techniques seem off to anyone else?

[Colette Brunel]

Does the balance of the three Rogue's Techniques seem off to anyone else?

Finesse Striker vs. Scoundrel's Feint is firmly in Finesse Striker's favor from 1st through 4th level. Characters have few enough ability score boosts that cutting down on MAD is crucial, and since a rogue most likely lacks a magic weapon and their 5th level Sneak Attack upgrade, raw ability modifier to damage is all the more important.

Finesse Striker vs. Scoundrel's Feint is a little better off from 5th level and above, kind of, but even then, I would personally always take Finesse Striker unless I was starting off with a rogue with a +3 magic weapon. I am simply a little leery of how effective Scoundrel's Feint actually is.

Brute Attack, however? Could someone please explain to me what the point of this is? It seems to be designed to let a rogue use a two-handed, d8 damage spear with a minor benefit on critical hits, and that is just about it. Is this so great an advantage that it can stand up to Finesse Striker and Scoundrel's Feint? I am skeptical.

[Siro]

Its a little off because the playtest rogue did not have Scoundrel's Feint or Brute Attack in mind when making it. So its not going to be accounted for in every class ability {unlike Finesse}, at least within this version.{personally I think Scoundrel's Feint got off better vs Scoundrel's.}. But I can understand a bit of the change from a RP and past history of the class {not every rogue going to make there living cutting purses or throats. Some may make there living stealing there victims hearts catfishing them along the way, or some may take the more simplistic approach of bopping them on the head and taking there wallet when they are knocked out. Some, Gray Master forbid, may not even steal. Plus, especially before the unchained version in PF1, you saw a couple of rogues use the class more for the skill points, cutting back on Dex a little in favour of more Str, or Cha to make more of a thug or cad character, while using flanking/bluffing to get there sneak attacks in.)

Haven't really had enough exp with Brute Attack so I can't really offer an opinion pass face value, which is, if you can get damage to dex its probably better to do that, as there will be more times as a Rogue that you want better AC, Ref saves, and Dex bonus to your skills, then extra carry Bulk, Str bonus to your skills and that small chance for critical specialization effects.

Scoundrel's fient makes off a bit better, as more so at higher levels as
Colette Brunel pointed. While I don't think the initial benefits of higher Cha and extra resonance is worth as much as what Dex give, it does give you something, and while most likely Finesse Striker will still be the most useful overall, Scoundrel's Feint does have a little bit of charm. Unlike Brute Attack, there are class feat which work of deception, so there is at least some integration. And having the ability to set up multiple sneak attacks against a foe all by yourself for the next two turns {in addition to making them flat-footed} can be useful. With Debilitating Strike and class feats that add on more options for it, it can get quite mean. Though a teammate willing to play flanking buddy can allow you to achieve similar results, and those making use of Scoundrel's Feint will still need to focus on Dex just to survive better close to there foe/hitting them.

[LuniasM]

In the case of DPR, the Finesse and Brute builds are roughly equal, with the Finesse build having a nearly-negligible advantage at Levels 1-4. The Finesse build may be better on their second and third attacks with an Agile weapon compared to a Brute with a Longspear or 2H Staff, but they're otherwise very similar. The Scoundrel build requires STR, DEX, and CHA at a bare minimum and should have the lowest damage, but that varies a lot with how likely they are to feint successfully.

The crit specialization for Brute Rogue is nice if you want to debuff more, but unless more Simple d8 weapons are released options will be limited. Brute damage heavily depends on their weapon of choice, so take d6 and d4 weapons at your own risk. The Scoundrel can sorta just go with the same options as a Finesse build, but they still need STR for damage so their build is a little MAD.

Personally, I think enemy Perception needs to go down before the Scoundrel' s Feint option becomes good enough to pull its weight, but the other two are decent enough to make them usable as-is. The one thing I will say is that Brute and Scoundrel pair well with Multiclass builds that would've needed the higher stats anyway, like Barbarian and Bard.

[Siro]

LuniasM wrote:

Personally, I think enemy Perception needs to go down before the Scoundrel' s Feint option becomes good enough to pull its weight, but the other two are decent enough to make them usable as-is. The one thing I will say is that Brute and Scoundrel pair well with Multiclass builds that would've needed the higher stats anyway, like Barbarian and Bard.

Actually, because you mentioned multiclass along with Scoundrel and the problems of high perception checks, I think I will share a small thought experiment I had. After writing my original comment, I thought about Scoundrel along with the Bard Multiclass {kinda of my own version of the Arcane Trickster of old} figure because both like having high Cha.

However, as I was going through everything, I realised you don't need Scoundrel to set up multiple sneak attacks per round by yourself, while at the same time you help out your team, and making it slightly difficult for you enemies, avoiding have to make any check to make it work, and can do it at some range as well if you want. May I present to you the Feat line=

1st---Dread Striker (LV4 Rouge Class Feat) All foes that are frightened are also flat-footed against your attack. {Flat-footed condition triggers sneak attacks}

2nd--Bard Dedication {LV2 Multiclass Feat, need at least 16 Cha)-You get trained in Occultism and Performance, and two Cantrips. I think we all know this is more of a stepping stone to the feat that we want, but you can probably find a decent cantrip or two to help how your rogue plays.

3rd-- Basic Muse's Whispers (LV4 Multiclass feat, Need Bard Dedication) Gives you a Level 1-2 bard class feat. This can be the one weak spot, as you can only get the Level 1 bard Feats, and with Lingering Composition, you do not have any compositions to use it. However Bardic Lore can have some use (may has well know a little bit about everything) and Versatile Performance {this is most likely going to be the only time I say this as a use. In a class that isn't the Bard, and is still being used as just a stepping stone for something better) if your rogue as no social skills, congrates you can kinda fake it a bit.

4th-- Advance Muse’s Whispers (LV6 Multiclass Feat, Need Basic Muse’s Whispers, however you can only get the Feat you need at 12th or higher) "Gain one bard feat. For the purposes of meeting its prerequisites, your bard level is equal to half your level". The one that you are picking is 'Dirge of Doom', which gives you the Dirge of Doom composition cantrip. It is a one action spell, without a save, has a 30 foot aura and as the effect "Foes within the area are frightened 1 and unable to reduce it for as long as they remain in the area." Combined with Dread Striker, as long as it can be frightened, it is also flat-footed against you, leading back into multiple sneak attacks, even at range if you want.

Now, there is most likely a better and easier build to achieve this. But in most cases it allows you to do what the Scoundrel wants to do, but better {you do need to spend a action each round to do it, however there is no chance of failure barring immunities, and by itself it helps the team as a whole.) I just find it kinda of sad that Finesse and Brute can do it better with this setup.

[Elleth]

LuniasM wrote:

In the case of DPR, the Finesse and Brute builds are roughly equal, with the Finesse build having a nearly-negligible advantage at Levels 1-4. The Finesse build may be better on their second and third attacks with an Agile weapon compared to a Brute with a Longspear or 2H Staff, but they're otherwise very similar.

While brute rogues could probably do with a few more weapon options, my favourite thing about the longspear rogue is how it later interacts with gang-up and opportune backstab.

[PossibleCabbage]

So I feel like the basic appeal of the other two Rogue techniques are "what if you envision your character to use a weapon that did not work with finesse striker" they want you to be able to have something other than a dead feature.

Like I wanted to roll up a rogue that used the Elven Curve blade, which is incompatible with Finesse Striker because it's a 2-handed weapon, but works fine with Scoundrel's Feint. I'm going to be feinting anyway for accuracy, so "better feinting" is fine- Plus, since I'm rolling d8s every potency rune makes up another 2 point gulf between Str and Dex in terms of damage.

[Elleth]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So I feel like the basic appeal of the other two Rogue techniques are "what if you envision your character to use a weapon that did not work with finesse striker" they want you to be able to have something other than a dead feature.

Like I wanted to roll up a rogue that used the Elven Curve blade, which is incompatible with Finesse Striker because it's a 2-handed weapon, but works fine with Scoundrel's Feint. I'm going to be feinting anyway for accuracy, so "better feinting" is fine- Plus, since I'm rolling d8s every potency rune makes up another 2 point gulf between Str and Dex in terms of damage.

On a side note. Not a top end option by any means, but Scoundrel's feint with a rapier and a main-gauche is very thematic. Reactive pursuit and nimble roll or sideside makes it even better there.

[Siro]

I always just though Scoundrel's Feint was the "You have no friends that want to flank." option.