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Jason recently pointed out that general feats and class feats are not equal. This (IMO) is a problem because the PF1e fighter has gone from being able to take 21 combat feats to only taking 11 combat feats. Furthermore a fighter's ability to take advanced weapon training and advanced armor training is also greatly reduced (if not removed) reducing the ability to customise your combat prowess even further.
I definitely think the game would benefit by beefing up General Feats. At the moment if I go to make a character chances are I'm going to avoid general feat and instead take a skill feat if a suitable one exists. As the list of feats grow my ability to avoid general feats will improve until I'm only taking skill feats and avoiding the category of general feats altogether.
To me having a category of feats that is avoided provides no value to the game. It's also causing fighters to be quite anemic when it comes to customising their combat options, which in turn makes other classes (such as clerics and bards) struggle in expressing themselves when it comes to weapon based combat.
Improving general feats would remove a category of feats that are taken only when forced and it improve how fighter's can customise themselves which in turn lets other classes potentially have more resources to use on combat.
Now I'm not saying fighter's need 21 feats. Many feats are no longer necessary (although by consequence everyone gets those feats for free now), but I do think improving general feats to be equal to class feats would allow more combat and magic specific feats to become general feats which would improve resources available for the clases to meaningfully spend.
Having feat options is great, but only when meaningful. And right now general feats are seldom meaningful.
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I am not sure if general feats need to be stronger exactly, but I do think that currently there is a lot that is class locked that should be general, including the combat options. I have no problem if specific classes get super duper versions of more generic feats, but right now I think there is too much forcing to pick up multiclass archetypes to improve combat. It also creates a weird situation where everytime in the future that Paizo may decide to invent a class that thematically makes sense to be good in certain combat styles, they have to go ahead and replicate existing feats. I fear this will lead to a lot of wasted space and blandish class options.
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i'd say all feats need some more "oomph" to them, though i'd think class feats should be more powerful than general feats--they're supposed to be integral, character-defining choices (they're LITERALLY what makes your character your own and not "generic TWF fighter #74625"), and should impact play as such
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i'd say all feats need some more "oomph" to them, though i'd think class feats should be more powerful than general feats--they're supposed to be integral, character-defining choices (they're LITERALLY what makes your character your own and not "generic TWF fighter #74625"), and should impact play as such
Problem with that is if we lock everything combat related away behind class feats and we only give out 11 class feats I'm getting substantially less tools to explore and express how I perform in combat. These aren't D&D 5th edition style super-feats (which can incorporate 2 or 3 PF1e style feats). They're very much like PF1e feats.
Either hand out more class feats (even more complexity with feats getting separated into even more levels) or allow general feats to improve combat much more then it currently does. Otherwise 11 feats is all my fighter gets.
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i'd say all feats need some more "oomph" to them, though i'd think class feats should be more powerful than general feats--they're supposed to be integral, character-defining choices (they're LITERALLY what makes your character your own and not "generic TWF fighter #74625"), and should impact play as suchProblem with that is if we lock everything combat related away behind class feats and we only give out 11 class feats I'm getting substantially less tools to explore and express how I perform in combat. These aren't D&D 5th edition style super-feats (which can incorporate 2 or 3 PF1e style feats). They're very much like PF1e feats.
Either hand out more class feats (even more complexity with feats getting separated into even more levels) or allow general feats to improve combat much more then it currently does. Otherwise 11 feats is all my fighter gets.
one of the "more oomph" things i've seen tossed around might be scaling feats, or feat lines that unlock as you go with just 1-2 choices (like "TWF" giving twf and eventually iwtf, and "advanced TWF" granting gtwf and two-weapon rend, etc) to balance out the lower number of choices--basically making those few choices more impactful
Problem is none of those feats actually exist. Scaling the feats that do exist isn't going to be as easy as it would if the game was actually built in a manner that is actually recognisable to PF1e.
What scaling that does exist ("Power Attsck" which is actually vital strike) is mediocre at best.
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If they're not of the same general power level, they shouldn't be called the same thing.
Going by that logic Power Attack and all the other staple feats from PF1 should have been in a different category from feats like Monkey Lunge and Dodge (or whatever other crappy feat you can think of).
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Considering how few General feats you get (actual General feats, not Skill General Feats) they should probably be significantly stronger than class feats.
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I feel like they don't need to be the same power, but general feats need to be a lot better than they are now, which might end up putting them around the same power.
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IMO general feats are about where they need to be and should have roughly equal power to each other. Class feats on the other hand need to escalate in power proportionally corresponding to their level. IMO a General Feats should be roughly equivalent to a low level class feat, and should not equal a mid to higher level feat.
Essentially general feats can’t be equally powered compared to class feats because class feats are a moving target with a wide and escalating range of power.
I wouldn’t mind general feats, especially the ability to pick up expert in weapons proficiency making the fighter version expert or upgrade expert to master.
This is sort of my feeling. General feats I think should be weaker, because they are open to everyone and shouldn't be the feats that define a character. Class feats, should be stronger. I wouldn't mind more general feats relating to combat. I think there are some basic options at the moment that are a bit too class locked that don't really need to be. and giving straight out better versions of certain general feats would also be fine for class feats, including perhaps working i some sort of automatic scaling.
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Why do you feel that class feats should be more defining than general feats? I like being able to define my character as something far more than their class. If anything, since classes give so many 'little bits', I'd rather the few general feats be more defining than any single class feats.
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There shouldn't really be general feats, per se. There should be ancestry, class, skill, combat and metamagic feats. Class feats should be focused on each class's niches (e.g, combos and AoO and critical hits for a fighter), combat feats should be a pool of moves anyone can spend class feats on (e.g, Double Slice), and metamagic feats should likewise be a pool anyone can spend class feats on (e.g, Reach Spell).
Going with this... They should strive to make all feat categories relatively as good as each other at a given level. A 5th level skill feat should be roughly as good as a 5th level class feat, whether that means a benefit that is independent of level (like a new action you can do), or a benefit that scales as you get better (like Catfall).
General feats should then be a floating feat that can be spent on any feat. Getting a general feat means you can take an ancestry, class, skill, combat or metamagic feat, according to your own build and needs.
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Since they are completely separate pools there is no need to make them of equivalent power.
Since they are completely separate pools there is no need to make them of equivalent power.
They aren't completely separate though. You already see various ancestries give class feats, various class feats which are bonus skill feats, etc. They already cross pollinate.
And on top of that, having them at wildly different power levels confuses players new to the system and turns building a character into a skill testing activity. It certainly caused frustration at my table. I thought we were over Monte Cook and his Ivory Tower BS.
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Too many general feats are lackluster.
Feats should be features that make you standout.
Most of the feats are too conditional and may almost never be used in a session
While I don't find general feats as interesting as I'd like, they certainly don't feel too conditional. Almost all of them boost your character in a way that has immediately observable benefits. I will say not all characters will want that many of the general feats, but getting improved armor proficiency or saves or initiative are all things that you will certainly see tangible benefits from, and very, well, generally applicable.
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I mean, a problem in PF1 was how some class features were feat equivalent via an "extra [foo]" feat. Which meant that you had to balance all rage powers, hexes, revelations, etc. against feats available at that level which restricted design space a lot.
Look at the Vigilante for example, Vigilante talents are almost always better than feats and some are equivalent to 3 feats. Not having an "extra vigilante talent" feat let you do this.
All that being said, as long as you don't publish an "extra class feat" general feat, you are fine and General Feats are pretty underwhelming. I figure that last bit is mostly because we need somewhere to put toughness and iron will and fleet.
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While I don't find general feats as interesting as I'd like, they certainly don't feel too conditional. Almost all of them boost your character in a way that has immediately observable benefits. I will say not all characters will want that many of the general feats, but getting improved armor proficiency or saves or initiative are all things that you will certainly see tangible benefits from, and very, well, generally applicable.
SOME are very good
Most are very lacklusterYes we have options but very few valid ones
Extra level 1 class feat is already in there by way of human ancestry. Making it a 1/2 class level feat would probably work out alright as well. The current state of things, with weapon/armor proficiencies that never advance, skill feats out of line of your proficiency increases, low tier save bumps, it's all pretty dissatisfying.
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There shouldn't really be general feats, per se. There should be ancestry, class, skill, combat and metamagic feats. Class feats should be focused on each class's niches (e.g, combos and AoO and critical hits for a fighter), combat feats should be a pool of moves anyone can spend class feats on (e.g, Double Slice), and metamagic feats should likewise be a pool anyone can spend class feats on (e.g, Reach Spell).
Going with this... They should strive to make all feat categories relatively as good as each other at a given level. A 5th level skill feat should be roughly as good as a 5th level class feat, whether that means a benefit that is independent of level (like a new action you can do), or a benefit that scales as you get better (like Catfall).
General feats should then be a floating feat that can be spent on any feat. Getting a general feat means you can take an ancestry, class, skill, combat or metamagic feat, according to your own build and needs.
I feel like some of these ideas are pretty fun.
In general I think general feats could do with being a fair bit flashier.
While I don't find general feats as interesting as I'd like, they certainly don't feel too conditional. Almost all of them boost your character in a way that has immediately observable benefits. I will say not all characters will want that many of the general feats, but getting improved armor proficiency or saves or initiative are all things that you will certainly see tangible benefits from, and very, well, generally applicable.
SOME are very good
Most are very lackluster
Yes we have options but very few valid ones
Gonna again disagree. They are absolutely valid. They may not be interesting but they are almost all functional.
Adopted Ancestry 1 General — Opening up access to other ancestry lists is quite good, especially given most ancestries only have a couple of feats you'll really want, and some barely have any.
Alertness 1 General — Literally the only thing that raises perception outside of class, and perception remains one of the most rolls you make.
Ancestral Paragon 1 General — Given we only get 1 ancestry feat and most character concepts appreciate having at least 2 ASAP, this is one of my facorite picks.
Armor Proficiency 1 General — Nobody wants to get hit.
Breath Control 1 General — Yeah too specific, I'll grant. Should be part of a skill feat or Pirate feat.
Diehard 1 General — I don't think a thing that can save your life is ever not a valid pick.
Fast Recovery 1 General Constitution 14-- This one ain't as good given Treat Wounds, and this would probably go on my lackluster list. Still, there are some really nasty afflictions this helps you recover from, and each part of the playtest seems to contain at least one of them.
Feather Step 1 General Dexterity 14 Difficult terrain is super common.
Fleet 1 General — Everyone enjoys more speed.
Great Fortitude 1 General Trained in Fortitude saves. Save bonuses are never bad.
Hefty Hauler 1 General Strength 12 Bulk adds up FAST this edition. If you're an archer who wants both a shortbow and a longbow plus at least one melee weapon and armor, you may brush up against your Encumbered Cap before you even look at adventuring gear. This is really good on archer rangers, I've found, and alchemists probably want it too.
Incredible Initiative 1 General — Initiative boosts are always good.
Iron Will 1 General Trained in Will saves. See Great Fortitude.
Lightning Reflexes 1 General Trained in Reflex saves. See Iron Will.
Remarkable Resonance 1 General Charisma 12. Again, who will complain about having more Resonance? My biggest problem is that it doesn't work well with alchemists.
Ride 1 General — This one does feel lackluster-- most dedicated riders probably use something with the minion trait and this does nothing for them.
Shield Proficiency -- Shields are really good, and this opens them up to most classes.
Toughness 1 General — See Die Hard.
Weapon Proficiency 1 General — Really important if you want to gish.
Expeditious Search-- Being able to search for hazards and ambushes while maintaining full speed for overland travel is actually really good whenever the quest is time sensitive.
Almost all of those are a boon to some type of character, and it is probably hard to build one who doesn't get a benefit from at least a few.
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Gonna again disagree. They are absolutely valid. They may not be interesting but they are almost all functional.
Adopted Ancestry 1 General — Opening up access to other ancestry lists is quite good, especially given most ancestries only have a couple of feats you'll really want, and some barely have any.
Alertness 1 General — I feel this should raise the proficiency
Ancestral Paragon 1 General — this may change with the new proficiency rules
Armor Proficiency 1 General — Nobody wants to get hit. agreed
Breath Control 1 General — agreed
Diehard 1 General — I don't think a thing that can save your life is ever not a valid pick. agreed
Fast Recovery 1 General Constitution 14-- we'll see after the heal rules
Feather Step 1 General Dexterity 14 Difficult terrain is super common.
Fleet 1 General — Everyone enjoys more speed.
Great Fortitude 1 General Trained in Fortitude saves. Save bonuses are never bad.
Hefty Hauler 1 General Strength 12 Bulk adds up FAST this edition. - I've yet to see DMs enforce the bulk rules
Incredible Initiative 1 General — Initiative boosts are always good.
Iron Will 1 General Trained in Will saves. See Great Fortitude.
Lightning Reflexes 1 General Trained in Reflex saves. See Iron Will.
Remarkable Resonance 1 General Charisma 12. -- resonance is still being worked on
Ride 1 General — This one does feel lackluster-- most dedicated riders probably use something with the minion trait and this does nothing for them.
Shield Proficiency -- Shields are really good, and this opens them up to most classes.
Toughness 1 General — See Die Hard.
Weapon Proficiency 1 General — Agreed and I feel ALL classes should start with all simple.
Expeditious Search-- Being able to search for hazards and ambushes while maintaining full speed for overland travel is actually really good whenever the quest is time sensitive.
I feel that there were more valid ones in 1st ED
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Gonna again disagree. They are absolutely valid. They may not be interesting but they are almost all functional.
Adopted Ancestry 1 General — Opening up access to other ancestry lists is quite good, especially given most ancestries only have a couple of feats you'll really want, and some barely have any.
Alertness 1 General — I feel this should raise the proficiency
Ancestral Paragon 1 General — this may change with the new proficiency rules
Armor Proficiency 1 General — Nobody wants to get hit. agreed
Breath Control 1 General — agreed
Diehard 1 General — I don't think a thing that can save your life is ever not a valid pick. agreed
Fast Recovery 1 General Constitution 14-- we'll see after the heal rules
Feather Step 1 General Dexterity 14 Difficult terrain is super common.
Fleet 1 General — Everyone enjoys more speed.
Great Fortitude 1 General Trained in Fortitude saves. Save bonuses are never bad.
Hefty Hauler 1 General Strength 12 Bulk adds up FAST this edition. - I've yet to see DMs enforce the bulk rules
Incredible Initiative 1 General — Initiative boosts are always good.
Iron Will 1 General Trained in Will saves. See Great Fortitude.
Lightning Reflexes 1 General Trained in Reflex saves. See Iron Will.Remarkable Resonance 1 General Charisma 12. -- resonance is still being worked on
Ride 1 General — This one does feel lackluster-- most dedicated riders probably use something with the minion trait and this does nothing for them.
Shield Proficiency -- Shields are really good, and this opens them up to most classes.
Toughness 1 General — See Die Hard.
Weapon Proficiency 1 General — Agreed and I feel ALL classes should start with all simple.
Expeditious Search-- Being able to search for hazards and ambushes while maintaining full speed for overland travel is actually really good whenever the quest is time sensitive.
I feel that there were more valid ones in 1st ED
Well, yeah. 1st edition had thousands of general feats. Of course there were more.
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In terms of combat power, I am fine with with general feats being weaker than class feats, as this prevents any crazy interactions where a general feat wildly influences the power of a given class. I am doubly ok with it if Class feats become stronger, such as through automatic scaling)
Plus, by segregating combat power and general feats, it opens up general feats to go towards developing aspects of the character that aren't about their class capabilities. Technically, some of these are small improvements to combat (Proficencies, HP, Speed), but these look more like ways to stretch your characters capabilities outside of what one's class is capable of. Or even help to make glueing together different class combinations more cleanly.)
In less words, I like comparatively weak general feats. It leaves them in a position to be able to express more character ideas without throwing balance out of whack. If characters still feel too weak, buff up class or skill feats instead.
In terms of combat power, I am fine with with general feats being weaker than class feats, as this prevents any crazy interactions where a general feat wildly influences the power of a given class. I am doubly ok with it if Class feats become stronger, such as through automatic scaling)
Plus, by segregating combat power and general feats, it opens up general feats to go towards developing aspects of the character that aren't about their class capabilities. Technically, some of these are small improvements to combat (Proficencies, HP, Speed), but these look more like ways to stretch your characters capabilities outside of what one's class is capable of. Or even help to make glueing together different class combinations more cleanly.)
In less words, I like comparatively weak general feats. It leaves them in a position to be able to express more character ideas without throwing balance out of whack. If characters still feel too weak, buff up class or skill feats instead.
Problem is they just moved the "combat stuff" out of general feats into class feats. Now class feats is where you have to decide to take flavorful stuff or ignore for just combat. So they just put the issue we had before somewhere else, but it's still there.