Questions on the Updated DC Table

[Raynulf]

Table 10-2 in the Playtest rulebook was something I found somewhat confusing, and I must admit to some relief that the numbers were under review. Having the new table in my hands (well, on my computer), I must admit to being curious as to the design philosophy behind the math.

From what I can tell, the table assumes that for any given check a character is going to increase their bonus by an amount greater than their increase in level. In other words, for any check, you must invest in item bonuses, increased proficiencies or increased ability scores in order to keep pace. What has changed is that the degree to which this applies.

Example: A Dex 18 ranger wanting to make the Ultimate Stealth check at 1st level needed to roll a 13 on a d20. That's a 35% chance of success.

At 20th level, having put burned one of their precious 3 legendary skills on Stealth, raised their Dex to 22, and invested in Greater Shadow armor, and their bonus rises to a mighty +33. Awesome! So now when they attempt the Ultimate Stealth check... they need to roll a 14 to succeed. That's a 30% chance of success.

This represents a character investing as much as possible into a skill to have a reduced chance of achieving the highest tier of difficulty.

Let's look at what happens when attempting a skill check for something other than you're limited 'specialised' skills:

At 1st level, Easy DC = 8, Hard DC = 15, Ultimate DC = 18
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 14, and 17 on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.

At 5th level, Easy DC = 12, Hard DC = 20, Ultimate DC = 23
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 15, and 18 on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.

At 10th level, Easy DC = 17, Hard DC = 27, Ultimate DC = 32
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 17, and 22 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.

At 15th level, Easy DC = 22, Hard DC = 33, Ultimate DC = 40
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 18, and 25 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.

At 20th level, Easy DC = 27, Hard DC = 39, Ultimate DC = 47
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 19, and 27 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.[/spoiler]

This is better than the previous table in the Rulebook, but the pattern is fairly straight forward: Unless you invest into it (skill increases, magic items, ability score boosts), your training will only keep pace with the lowest tier of difficulty.

My question here is... Why?

Surely investing everything possible should improve the odds of succeeding at heroic challenges, not - at best - tread water? Surely non-rogue characters shouldn't be pushed into having to pick just 3 skills to be competent at?

Then again, I might simply be misunderstanding the design intent of the skill DC table.

[Lyee]

Fully agree. Highly invested characters should become able to punch higher and higher above their weight at the thing they super focus in. For your super-stealth-focused ranger, if he needs a 13 to succeed a same-level ultimate challenge at first level, then fully invests in stealth, I would like to see a 13 on the dice let him accomplish a level 24 ultimate challenge or so, let that investment have him excel, not keep up.

[Dreamtime2k9]

I don't see the design intent either for what its worth.

Regarding your example; You could have 24 in a stat by raising of stats to the maximum; assuming your class provides you with a +2 to the stat required for the skill and equip a potent item post 15th level. Lowering that from a 14 on the dice to a 13 and as such keeping pace with the original failure chance at level 1 for the optimized character.

Which doesn't change that the chance of failure for such an investment for the optimized character is too low. It'll just make the average player feel like making the investment wasn't worth it as he was still facing the same dice roll requirement that he had at level 1 compared to the same roll required at level 20 despite his investment to grow and become better with items and skill investments.

It would also help if we knew what this table would represent by the use of some examples at each of the level intervals for each of the skills.

What does easy/hard/ultimate even mean? Does ultimate basicly mean your doing something that would typically be downright impossible such as for example; being caught stealing from the king by his queen but utilising deception to claim you are in fact the king in disguise? Despite being another race and female in appearance

Would that be an ultimate 10th level challenge or an ultimate 20th level challenge, would that just be a hard challenge at 20th level if it was an ultimate 10th level challenge?

Setting forth DC's is fine but if no one knows what the table represents, how would the average GM make use of it to figure out what an appropriate challenge would be?

[Draco18s]

It's at least...better

The last column hasn't really changed (looks like 1 point lower), but you should never have been rolling against it anyway. Most DCs are supposed to be from the Medium or Hard column.

[Mark Seifter]

Draco18s wrote:

The last column hasn't really changed (looks like 1 point lower), but you should never have been rolling against it anyway. Most DCs are supposed to be from the Medium or Hard column.

Yep, like Dreamtime suggests, the Ultimate column is for when you're trying to do something to the utmost extremes. It's sort of the skill analog to the Extreme encounter difficulty (which we recommend to rarely if ever use because they have a high chance of TPK). It is basically defined as a challenge based on the maximum conditions of that level, which aren't the way we benchmark the other difficulties.

If you check the Medium and Hard column, you should find that invested characters (even someone who doesn't max it out but starts with a 14 in the stat, raises it at stat ups, doesn't get the stat item because it isn't their top priority, raises proficiency rank but maybe not right away, raises the item but maybe not right away) is on an increasing trajectory where they get better and better at making the checks as they level up.

[Draco18s]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

The last column hasn't really changed (looks like 1 point lower), but you should never have been rolling against it anyway. Most DCs are supposed to be from the Medium or Hard column.

Yep, like Dreamtime suggests, the Ultimate column is for when you're trying to do something to the utmost extremes. It's sort of the skill analog to the Extreme encounter difficulty (which we recommend to rarely if ever use because they have a high chance of TPK). It is basically defined as a challenge based on the maximum conditions of that level, which aren't the way we benchmark the other difficulties.

If you check the Medium and Hard column, you should find that invested characters (even someone who doesn't max it out but starts with a 14 in the stat, raises it at stat ups, doesn't get the stat item because it isn't their top priority, raises proficiency rank but maybe not right away, raises the item but maybe not right away) is on an increasing trajectory where they get better and better at making the checks as they level up.

I'm not sure about the "if its only one person that has to succeed, add 4" (that is, I'm not sure +4 is the right value: that shifts a Medium all the way up to Incredible (level 6-15) or Ultimate (levels 1-5)!) but I reserve judgement to see it in play first.

(Also, thanks so much for making the new updates stand out against the old! I was going in and manually highlighting them and sharing the result with my group. Props to whomever did that!).

[Mark Seifter]

Draco18s wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

The last column hasn't really changed (looks like 1 point lower), but you should never have been rolling against it anyway. Most DCs are supposed to be from the Medium or Hard column.

Yep, like Dreamtime suggests, the Ultimate column is for when you're trying to do something to the utmost extremes. It's sort of the skill analog to the Extreme encounter difficulty (which we recommend to rarely if ever use because they have a high chance of TPK). It is basically defined as a challenge based on the maximum conditions of that level, which aren't the way we benchmark the other difficulties.

If you check the Medium and Hard column, you should find that invested characters (even someone who doesn't max it out but starts with a 14 in the stat, raises it at stat ups, doesn't get the stat item because it isn't their top priority, raises proficiency rank but maybe not right away, raises the item but maybe not right away) is on an increasing trajectory where they get better and better at making the checks as they level up.

I'm not sure about the "if its only one person that has to succeed, add 4" (that is, I'm not sure +4 is the right value: that shifts a Medium all the way up to Incredible (level 6-15) or Ultimate (levels 1-5)!) but I reserve judgement to see it in play first.

(Also, thanks so much for making the new updates stand out against the old! I was going in and manually highlighting them and sharing the result with my group. Props to whomever did that!).

It's weird, but depending on the exact dynamics of the DC, even being able to roll twice is worth a +4 (here, though, not everyone is probably as good as your best person, which cancels out the fact you're rolling more than twice when everyone rolls). Now because that math is less true at the extremes, this does mean that if you're already in a crazy enough situation to warrant using Ultimate, it would not be safe to say that raising it by 4 and letting the whole party roll is a good idea (nor is raising an Easy by 4 and letting the whole party roll a good idea because it's at the other extreme), but for Medium and Hard especially? It should work out well for most groups.

As for standing out, there were a whole lot of us in the office who really really wanted to have it stand out more, and we eventually settled on this option. Glad to know it's working for you so far!

[Dreamtime2k9]

That was helpful, i realise i might be asking for too much as i'm not certain what you would be able to share and what not, i'll try and follow up on this.

So based on what is said; ultimate is basicly attempting to do something impossible. I can see the logic, its why i used the example in the hopes someone could clarify, so thanks a bunch for confirming that suspision.

Medium and hard would be the most common checks found in the typical game and what would be the "system average benchmark" is what i understood from your post.

I'll use the 4 levels used by the op to demonstrate the part where it doesn't fully add up;

Level 1 - Medium DC: 13, Hard DC: 15
A Trained character with a 14 in the relevant skill needs a 10 and 12 on the die to succeed.

Level 5 - Medium DC: 18, Hard DC: 20
A Trained character with a 14 in the relevant skill needs a 11 and 13 on the die to succeed. A character that invested in the skill either through the stat increase or skill increase to expert would be at 10/12 respectively, a character that did both would be at 9 and 11.

Level 10 - Medium DC: 24, Hard DC: 27
A Trained character with a 14 in the relevant skill needs a 12 and 15 on the die to succeed. A character that invested in the skill either through the stat increase or skill increase to expert would be at 11/14 respectively, a character that did both skill increases to expert/master and 2x stat increases would be at 8 and 11.

Level 15 - Medium DC: 30, Hard DC: 33
A Trained character with a 14 in the relevant skill needs a 13 and 16 on the die to succeed. A character that invested in the skill either through the stat increase or skill increase to expert would be at 12/15 respectively, a character that did both 3x skill increases and stat increases would be at 8 and 11 without a potent item.

Level 20 - Medium DC: 36, Hard DC: 39
A Trained character with a 14 in the relevant skill needs a 14 and 17 on the die to succeed. A character that invested in the skill either through the stat increase or skill increase to expert would be at 13/16 respectively, a character that did both 3x skill increases and stat increases would be at 8 and 11 without a potent item. Meaning if you invested an additional 2 stat increases additionally(to 20), it would go down to 7/10.

I realise that i didn't include items; that was on purpose as not even half the skills presently have a way to enhance the roll. I actually believe if there was an item equivalent of "greater shadow" for all skills, the table would actually be very solid as it stands.

So all things considered, it looks pretty stable assuming you invest your stat and skill increases each time, it does indeed seem like a positive trajectory assuming you make the investments each time. If the system is based around the medium and hard DC's, those seem respectable for the most part at least in theory.

Now in practice; you cannot get all of your skills to legendary due to a set number of skill increases available to every character, you could raise all your stats to 18's by level 20 but it would come at the cost of combat potential which (in my eyes) is even more so tight math wise.

The numbers for combat(saves/attacks in particular) also make the assumption that you maximized effectiveness for sake of sticking with the curve so you wouldn't have spread across all stats which means your sacrificing either skill potential on many skills(because you can't have everything at legendary, and you'd likely sacrifice at least 1 attribute skillwise to prevail in combat) in order to keep up with the expected curve.

its because of this that i am personally feeling a bit awkward about the idea that skill increases are taken into account for the skill DC system for the averages of medium/hard seeing as non-rogue characters only have 3 skills they can have to keep up with the legendary+18 stat curve as seen in the above example, which in reality still only make it a 60-45% success rate starting out with a 14 and raising it gradually. Considering you have 16 non-lore skills and typically will see 4 players in a party; that'll result in a group covering 12 of those 16 skills in an ideal world where there is no overlap at all. Which feels unlikely in the average group i've been a part of at least.

It all seems and feels very tight, i think a bit too much so for unoptimized characters that are heavier on the fluff than effectiveness; they used to be an option but with the tight math... Although it is a definite upgrade over the previous table.

Note: I don't think medium/hard DC's corresponds with DD at all making it very hard to playtest but seeing as it is a playtest, i assume thats why that is in order to stress test everything at its peak rather so than the expected skill levels to get a better baseline in the future?

[Raynulf]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

The last column hasn't really changed (looks like 1 point lower), but you should never have been rolling against it anyway. Most DCs are supposed to be from the Medium or Hard column.

Yep, like Dreamtime suggests, the Ultimate column is for when you're trying to do something to the utmost extremes. It's sort of the skill analog to the Extreme encounter difficulty (which we recommend to rarely if ever use because they have a high chance of TPK). It is basically defined as a challenge based on the maximum conditions of that level, which aren't the way we benchmark the other difficulties.

If you check the Medium and Hard column, you should find that invested characters (even someone who doesn't max it out but starts with a 14 in the stat, raises it at stat ups, doesn't get the stat item because it isn't their top priority, raises proficiency rank but maybe not right away, raises the item but maybe not right away) is on an increasing trajectory where they get better and better at making the checks as they level up.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify, Mark :D

The question that was made about "What constitutes a Level 10 Ultimate challenge?" is a good one.

Is it based on the task - i.e. climbing a conifer a Hard L1 Athletics check (so DC15), but climbing up Angel Falls inside the waterfall is a Level 10 Hard Athletics check (DC 27)?

Is it based on the PCs - i.e. climbing a conifer is "Hard" at 1st level (DC15), but Easy at 10th level (So DC17)? Is Angel Falls an Ultimate challenge at 1st level (DC18), but merely Hard at 10th (DC27)?

Also, like Dreamtime has above, I'm going to have to poke the numbers a little.

Though I should mention that the levels I chose (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th) are essentially at the 'peaks' of relative skill level due to the fact that those are when the ability score boosts occur, and if one plotted skill bonus vs level, it would dip a bit between those points, rather than be a straight line.

Using a somewhat more worked example:

1st Level Human Blacksmith-turned-Fighter
Str 18; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 12; Wis 10; Cha 10
(T) Acrobatics* -1 (Easy 9; Med 14; Hard 16; Incred 17; Ult 19)
(T) Athletics* +1 (Easy 7; Med 12; Hard 14; Incred 15; Ult 17)
(T) Crafting +2 (Easy 6; Med 11; Hard 13; Incred 14; Ult 16)
(T) Diplomacy +1 (Easy 7; Med 12; Hard 14; Incred 15; Ult 17)
(T) Stealth* -1 (Easy 9; Med 14; Hard 16; Incred 17; Ult 19)
(T) Survival +1 (Easy 7; Med 12; Hard 14; Incred 15; Ult 17)
*Including -4 penalty from breastplate

5th Level Human Blacksmith-turned-Fighter
Str 19; Dex 16; Con 16; Int 14; Wis 10; Cha 10
(E) Acrobatics* +6 (Easy 6; Med 12; Hard 14; Incred 16; Ult 17)
(T) Athletics* +6 (Easy 6; Med 12; Hard 14; Incred 16; Ult 17)
(E) Crafting +8 (Easy 4; Med 10; Hard 12; Incred 14; Ult 15)
(T) Diplomacy +5 (Easy 7; Med 13; Hard 15; Incred 17; Ult 18)
(T) Stealth* +5 (Easy 7; Med 13; Hard 15; Incred 17; Ult 18)
(T) Survival +5 (Easy 7; Med 13; Hard 15; Incred 17; Ult 18)
*Including -3 penalty from expert breastplate

10th Level Human Blacksmith-turned-Fighter
Str 20; Dex 16; Con 18; Int 16; Wis 12; Cha 10
(M) Acrobatics* +13 (Easy 4; Med 11; Hard 14; Incred 18; Ult 19)
(T) Athletics* +13 (Easy 4; Med 11; Hard 14; Incred 18; Ult 19)
(M) Crafting +14 (Easy 3; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 18)
(T) Diplomacy +10 (Easy 7; Med 14; Hard 17; Incred 21; Ult 22)
(T) Stealth* +11 (Easy 6; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 21)
(T) Survival +11 (Easy 6; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 21)
*Including -2 penalty from master breastplate

15th Level Human Blacksmith-turned-Fighter
Str 21; Dex 18; Con 18; Int 16; Wis 14; Cha 12
(L) Acrobatics* +20 (Easy 2; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 20)
(M) Athletics* +20 (Easy 2; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 20)
(M) Crafting +20 (Easy 2; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 20)
(T) Diplomacy +16 (Easy 6; Med 14; Hard 17; Incred 21; Ult 24)
(T) Stealth* +17 (Easy 5; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 23)
(T) Survival +17 (Easy 5; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 23)
*Including -2 penalty from master breastplate

20th Level Human Blacksmith-turned-Fighter
Str 22; Dex 18; Con 18; Int 18; Wis 16; Cha 14
(L) Acrobatics* +26 (Easy 1; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 21)
(M) Athletics* +27 (Easy 0; Med 9; Hard 12; Incred 16; Ult 20)
(M) Crafting +26 (Easy 1; Med 10; Hard 13; Incred 17; Ult 21)
(T) Diplomacy +22 (Easy 5; Med 14; Hard 17; Incred 21; Ult 25)
(T) Stealth* +23 (Easy 4; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 24)
(T) Survival +23 (Easy 4; Med 13; Hard 16; Incred 20; Ult 24)
*Including -1 penalty from legendary breastplate

The above is a lot of numbers to digest, and for the sake of clarity I left out magic items like the armbands of athleticism, as magic item allotments are a larger topic to discuss.

The above describes what, I think, is a fairly reasonable progression for a character, with a few specialized skills and a fairly broad approach to raising ability scores (i.e. only one is raised above 18, rather than shooting for Con 20, which many fighters will). So lets examine how the numbers fair for their different skills.

Best Skills: Their "chosen three" are Acrobatics, Athletics and Crafting, with the character favouring blacksmithing in particular due to their background, and of those three, Crafting is undoubtedly the best due to not having armor check penalties applying to it. Thus, the odds of success proceeds something like this (All are 1st / 5th / 10th / 15th / 20th):

Easy: 75% / 85% / 90% / 95% / 100%

Medium: 50% / 55% / 55% / 55% / 55%

Hard: 40% / 45% / 40% / 40% / 40%

Incredible: 35% / 35% / 20% / 20% / 20%

Ultimate: 25% / 30% / 15% / 5% / 0%

Easy difficulty progresses how one would expect as one raises Int and skill level, however Medium and Hard DCs such increases currently seem to simply hold the character level. Incredible and Ultimate DCs are another tail, where characters go from "unlikely" to succeed to "impossible" to succeed on such checks even with Legendary proficiency and an 18 in the associated ability score.

Now, characters can pick up items that give bonuses; typically a +2 by 10th and a +4 by 20th level, but even then there is still a struggle to hold even.

Secondary Skills: The above represents the character's best skill, but they also have 3 other trained skills (and can gain more via feats) whose ability scores increase over level. Lets go with Survival (though Diplomacy is similar).

Easy: 70% / 70% / 75% / 80% / 85%

Medium: 45% / 40% / 40% / 40% / 40%

Hard: 35% / 30% / 25% / 25% / 25%

Incredible: 30% / 20% / 5% / 5% / 5%

Ultimate: 20% / 15% / 0% / 0% / 0%

Raising Wis from 10 to 16 over 20 levels ensures that Easy checks become correspondingly easier, Medium checks 'about as challenging' and Hard only suffers a slight decline. Incredible and Ultimate difficulty checks go from "You have a shot" to "Pretty much impossible" in a rather hard transition around 10th level.

Magic Items: This character is a fighter. As such, if we go by Table 11-2, their wealth is likely to include 1 x 19th, 2 x 17th, 1 x 17th and 2 x 16th level items, plus a little cash. A likely list is:

19th: Breastplate +5

18th: Rune of Greater Fortification

18th: Indestructible Shield

17th: Greater Daredevil Boots

16th: Melee Weapon +4

16th: Ranged Weapon +4

Of the remaining 20,000gp, The Belt of Giant Strength would absolutely take first place, with subsequent cash likely to go to snag some lower level property runes like Greater Flaming, Holy and/or Keen, though some of the 'lower cost' skill boosts may be on the cards, to snag a +2 here or there.

With the above, said fighter will likely hold close to even on Crafting, and may even find themselves raising their odds of succeeding at the harder DCs for their level on Acrobatics and Athletics, primarily because of the item boosts.

In Summary: I can fully appreciate wanting to constrain the numbers to avoid the auto-success/auto-fail binary result of 3.5/PF1, but I am a tad uncertain how these numbers will play out, as it feels a bit like it is pushing for "Optimise or Go Home". No offense intended, this is just the best description I can muster at the moment.

I also am a bit curious why a "medium" challenge for one's best skill is around 50/50. It seems... low.

[Dreamtime2k9]

I should stop doing numbers with your ability to lay it out properly instead of my half-attempt in the middle of the night. Eherm.. anyway.

Something i considered earlier was; is the reason for the 50% benchmark because of the +10/-10 critical system to prevent them from being too frequent?

[Bartram]

Disclaimer: Anecdotes are not evidence, here is my anecdote anyways

I am not sure I understand the intent of including item bonuses in the benchmarks. In all the characters I have played, or seen played at my tables in the past 30 years of d20 based gaming, I think I have seen MAYBE two characters with skill boosting items. And even then its always on rogues get their Rogue skills up. Why spend money on a +5 stealth item, when that may mean I have to wait another adventure or two to get my next big six item upgraded? (This is of course not counting PFS games, where I have no idea what other characters are playing, but I certainly haven't ever used them)

Which is to say, I think the developers are vastly overestimating how common the use of skill boosting items are. Honestly, if they are causing so much trouble with DC balancing, just remove them from the game. Or limit them to +2 max. Would anyone really miss items designed to keep you up to speed on the treadmill? (ESPECIALLY if we are sharply limiting the number of items you can equip, as the devs are indicating they want to do)

[Draco18s]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

I'm not sure about the "if its only one person that has to succeed, add 4" (that is, I'm not sure +4 is the right value: that shifts a Medium all the way up to Incredible (level 6-15) or Ultimate (levels 1-5)!) but I reserve judgement to see it in play first.

t's weird, but depending on the exact dynamics of the DC, even being able to roll twice is worth a +4 (here, though, not everyone is probably as good as your best person, which cancels out the fact you're rolling more than twice when everyone rolls). Now because that math is less true at the extremes, this does mean that if you're already in a crazy enough situation to warrant using Ultimate, it would not be safe to say that raising it by 4 and letting the whole party roll is a good idea (nor is raising an Easy by 4 and letting the whole party roll a good idea because it's at the other extreme), but for Medium and Hard especially? It should work out well for most groups.

Sure, sure. That's part of the reason that I wasn't sure about whether or not it was the right value.

Maybe more of a distinction between "any one person" and "only one person"? E.g. Recall Knowledge is clearly in the first category but "disarming a trap" is clearly in the second.

(It may also get in the way of the Aid rules, as increasing the DC by 4 because both people are rolling may result in different outcomes than one person aiding the other and giving a +2)

Quote:

As for standing out, there were a whole lot of us in the office who really really wanted to have it stand out more, and we eventually settled on this option. Glad to know it's working for you so far!

Now I just need an updated PDF ;) I don't care if some pages end up 90% blank because new inserts didn't quantity-match with removals, I just don't want to have to deal with this:

https://i.postimg.cc/Gmz1yDMF/edit1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/cJHGMJjV/edit2.png

:P