How to make Iomedae more sympathetic.

[Yqatuba]

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

[HWalsh]

Yqatuba wrote:

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

Alternatively - Any PC willing to mock a God in their own home deserves what they get. It also is only permanent if they don't apologize and/or if they do it again.

[DominusMegadeus]

HWalsh wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

Alternatively - Any PC willing to mock a God in their own home deserves what they get. It also is only permanent if they don't apologize and/or if they do it again.

Truth, Justice and The Lawful Good Way: Inflict lethal damage on innocent people if they annoy you.

[Titania]

The encounter as written doesn't portray Iomedae's divine Charisma and Wisdom. Many approaches will work. Here's one idea:

Instead of running the encounter as written, you can have her blast the characters right off as their first test.

Iomedae will warn the characters that she will blast them, just to discern whether they have the power to resist the demons. She can say something like, "If you can't take the Three Righteous Blasts of the Trumpets of Heaven, you have no business fighting the Lord of the Ivory Labyrinth in his home plane, and you are not the heroes I am looking for."

If the PCs tremble in fear and say, "No! No! Dear goddess, spare us!" this proves they are not up to the adventure.

More likely they will agree (perhaps with some suspicion) to take the blasts, which makes the goddess smile at their bravery. After each blast, let the characters decide whether to heal or to go on to the next one without healing. Anyone who dies will be resurrected by the goddess at the end of the three blasts. Anyone who takes all three blasts without healing and survives earns a special blessing from Iomedae, perhaps one of the treasures she would otherwise give, perhaps something else.

Then proceed with asking the three questions. There is no punishment for a "wrong" answer. You can make Iomedae sympathetic by having her help the characters think through their answers.

For those who mock the goddess, she may remove their mouths or transform them into swords and shields for the duration of the encounter.

[Yqatuba]

HWalsh wrote:

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

I figure it would help humanize her and show how much she really cares about her herald.

[HWalsh]

Yqatuba wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

I figure it would help humanize her and show how much she really cares about her herald.

It makes her look weak. She's the most powerful war goddess who has been alive for centuries and has lead armies into personal battle. When she lost her companions to a monster that ate them, instead of crying she slew the beast, sliced it open and retrieved them. (That is one of her divine acts.)

Would you have Gorum breaking down with his eyes glistening with tears? No.

Is it because she's Lawful Good? That doesn't work.

Is it because she's a Goddess? That's not cool.

She's seen countless people die. She's lead armies into bloody Crusades. She's the Goddess of War and Battle.

I will be honest - None of what she does is wrong - People inflate what she does. She's doing what she does to high level, high mythic tier, heroes. They're not in any danger and she knows it.

As for her retaliating for being mocked. Again. She's a War Goddess - You are a guest in her home. If you mock her she deafened you and mutes you until you apologize.

There is nothing wrong with that.

If you apologize she restores you.

If you mock her again, or are dumb enough to attack her, then you deserve what you get. She's a God. Gods, even Lawful Good ones, are still Gods and are still scary.

Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Nice or a doormat for a smart-mouthed PC.

[Iomedae, The Inheritor]

I'm sorry, is the music too loud?

[Yqatuba]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

Alternatively - Any PC willing to mock a God in their own home deserves what they get. It also is only permanent if they don't apologize and/or if they do it again.

Truth, Justice and The Lawful Good Way: Inflict lethal damage on innocent people if they annoy you.

Agreed, this attitude makes me want to puke: that whoever's in charge can just do anything they want and no rules apply. As the saying goes: good leaders lead by example. Expecting people to do good and then doing horrible things to anyone who annoys you is NOT LG behavior.

[Xenocrat]

Yqatuba wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

Alternatively - Any PC willing to mock a God in their own home deserves what they get. It also is only permanent if they don't apologize and/or if they do it again.

Truth, Justice and The Lawful Good Way: Inflict lethal damage on innocent people if they annoy you.

Agreed, this attitude makes me want to puke: that whoever's in charge can just do anything they want and no rules apply. As the saying goes: good leaders lead by example. Expecting people to do good and then doing horrible things to anyone who annoys you is NOT LG behavior.

Why do you think there's not a rule/law against being insulting to superiors/hosts/gods (Iomedae is all three) in her own realm? I'd be surprised if there weren't. She's competent to be judge, jury, and enforcer on the spot for violations of the law of her realm. If you're a disrespectful peasant maybe you get three lashes; if you're mythic tier 6, you get a bunch of sonic damage that won't kill you.

[Yqatuba]

Xenocrat wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

So I haven't played or run the game but I still know about the infamous encounter with Iomedae. (Where she forces you to ask questions and hits you for massive sonic damage if you fail, and also permenantly mutes anyone who insults her). So I was thinking instead maybe have her on the verge of tears after losing her herald and instead of punishing people she gives them a magic item (one per character) if they guess right. As for the mockery thing just have her hit them with a silence that lasts the rest of the encounter (meaning the person can't answer any questions so cant get magic items}

Iomedae on the verge of tears? She's the most powerful war goddess. She wouldn't do that.

Alternatively - Any PC willing to mock a God in their own home deserves what they get. It also is only permanent if they don't apologize and/or if they do it again.

Truth, Justice and The Lawful Good Way: Inflict lethal damage on innocent people if they annoy you.

Agreed, this attitude makes me want to puke: that whoever's in charge can just do anything they want and no rules apply. As the saying goes: good leaders lead by example. Expecting people to do good and then doing horrible things to anyone who annoys you is NOT LG behavior.

Why do you think there's not a rule/law against being insulting to superiors/hosts/gods (Iomedae is all three) in her own realm? I'd be surprised if there weren't. She's competent to be judge, jury, and enforcer on the spot for violations of the law of her realm. If you're a disrespectful peasant maybe you get three lashes; if you're mythic tier 6, you get a bunch of sonic damage that won't kill you.

IMO a good aligned leader wouldn't physically harm people over words. I could see them issuing a fine or something for insulting them but that's about it.

[Yqatuba]

Also you don't even have to insult her to get blasted, all you have to do is guess a question wrong.

[PossibleCabbage]

I don't think deities should be sympathetic. I think even the nice ones should be utterly alien and tremendously intimidating.

[The Doc CC]

I'm in the camp that thinks the encounter as written is truly awful.

Let me use an example from a film. In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indiana is trying to find the cup used by Jesus Christ during the Last Supper. He's surrounded by golden cups. Which cup belonged to Jesus? The simple carpenter's cup made of wood.

I completely rewrote the scene. She should exemplify the traits worthy of her station entirely, and those traits should include (but not be limited to) humanity, humility, and dignity that cannot be brought low just because some PC acts like a clown. As a goddess in her own realm, she is beyond their power to insult or make look foolish.

I plan to run it as the PC's are initially greeted by a trumpet archon as her messenger in the scene. Many penitents and supplicants are praying to the Inheritor in the cathedral. Perceptive PC's pick up the prayers aren't for Iomedae to solve their problems; they ask for the strength of character to solve it themselves. The trumpet archon will charge the PC's with the quest, and if they don't investigate the chapel some, that's it. No damage. No injuries. It then offers to give them time in the cathedral while it retrieves the Stole.

In a wing of the chapel is an old sword with a notched edge and a worn-down leather handle. It's placed in a place of honor. If they investigate it, a young human knight asks their opinion of it. It's a perfectly normal sword. Unremarkable. She informs them it was the first sword Iomedae ever carried. The knight herself is unremarkable and I plan to describe her as such; fit and in serviceable armor, short hair in an unruly bob cut, face bearing fine scars, a bit shorter than most, and with a slightly awkward smile. Demeanor courteous and gentle and kind. And only if a clever PC figures it out does the young knight reveal she is the Inheritor.

Iomedae explains to them their their worth or not for this task is irrelevant. They have the chance to act. They are defined by how they rise to this chance to act. Every moment is your chance to live up to Heaven's ideals - or not. And I plan to play up how human Iomedae is. Again, I'm borrowing from the real world, where multiple religions with a truly human prophet, savior, or teacher play up the humanity and suffering of that individual to bridge the gap between human and divine. Does Iomedae need a golden statue and exalted trappings? No; the deeds and teachings are the real glory.

We'll see how it goes. My players are perceptive and conditioned to investigate things; I can usually count on them to kick the tires on things that seem obvious and straightforward, so I expect they'll get to the bottom of the chapel.

[Yqatuba]

The Doc CC wrote:

I'm in the camp that thinks the encounter as written is truly awful.

Let me use an example from a film. In Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indiana is trying to find the cup used by Jesus Christ during the Last Supper. He's surrounded by golden cups. Which cup belonged to Jesus? The simple carpenter's cup made of wood.

I completely rewrote the scene. She should exemplify the traits worthy of her station entirely, and those traits should include (but not be limited to) humanity, humility, and dignity that cannot be brought low just because some PC acts like a clown. As a goddess in her own realm, she is beyond their power to insult or make look foolish.

I plan to run it as the PC's are initially greeted by a trumpet archon as her messenger in the scene. Many penitents and supplicants are praying to the Inheritor in the cathedral. Perceptive PC's pick up the prayers aren't for Iomedae to solve their problems; they ask for the strength of character to solve it themselves. The trumpet archon will charge the PC's with the quest, and if they don't investigate the chapel some, that's it. No damage. No injuries. It then offers to give them time in the cathedral while it retrieves the Stole.

In a wing of the chapel is an old sword with a notched edge and a worn-down leather handle. It's placed in a place of honor. If they investigate it, a young human knight asks their opinion of it. It's a perfectly normal sword. Unremarkable. She informs them it was the first sword Iomedae ever carried. The knight herself is unremarkable and I plan to describe her as such; fit and in serviceable armor, short hair in an unruly bob cut, face bearing fine scars, a bit shorter than most, and with a slightly awkward smile. Demeanor courteous and gentle and kind. And only if a clever PC figures it out does the young knight reveal she is the Inheritor.

Iomedae explains to them their their worth or not for this task is irrelevant. They have the chance to act. They are defined by how they rise to this...

Personally I think this is awesome. Also, didn't the writer himself admit it was badly written and apologize for it? I think if the freakin WRITER himself thinks it was poorly written, it was poorly written.

[YourNewShoe]

Xenocrat wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Agreed, this attitude makes me want to puke: that whoever's in charge can just do anything they want and no rules apply. As the saying goes: good leaders lead by example. Expecting people to do good and then doing horrible things to anyone who annoys you is NOT LG behavior.

Why do you think there's not a rule/law against being insulting to superiors/hosts/gods (Iomedae is all three) in her own realm? I'd be surprised if there weren't. She's competent to be judge, jury, and enforcer on the spot for violations of the law of her realm. If you're a disrespectful peasant maybe you get three lashes; if you're mythic tier 6, you get a bunch of sonic damage that won't kill you.

Imagine you have a party of PCs arrive in town to speak to a noble about something. They get a meeting, and while waiting in another room of his manor, hear noise from the other room. Investigating, they find the man beating a clearly helpless guest.

Does this sound like the introduction to an LG ally to you?

Besides, as anyone who plays a Paladin in an Evil realm should be ready to argue, a law that clearly serves to beat down the weak for the benefit of an undeserving ruler is no law at all.

[Xenocrat]

YourNewShoe wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Agreed, this attitude makes me want to puke: that whoever's in charge can just do anything they want and no rules apply. As the saying goes: good leaders lead by example. Expecting people to do good and then doing horrible things to anyone who annoys you is NOT LG behavior.

Why do you think there's not a rule/law against being insulting to superiors/hosts/gods (Iomedae is all three) in her own realm? I'd be surprised if there weren't. She's competent to be judge, jury, and enforcer on the spot for violations of the law of her realm. If you're a disrespectful peasant maybe you get three lashes; if you're mythic tier 6, you get a bunch of sonic damage that won't kill you.

Imagine you have a party of PCs arrive in town to speak to a noble about something. They get a meeting, and while waiting in another room of his manor, hear noise from the other room. Investigating, they find the man beating a clearly helpless guest.

Does this sound like the introduction to an LG ally to you?

Besides, as anyone who plays a Paladin in an Evil realm should be ready to argue, a law that clearly serves to beat down the weak for the benefit of an undeserving ruler is no law at all.

This is clearly the argument of a demonic infiltrator advising weakness and acceptance of lax discipline in the forces of good.

[YourNewShoe]

Xenocrat wrote:

This is clearly the argument of a demonic infiltrator advising weakness and acceptance of lax discipline in the forces of good.

You're right, it'd be far better for the forces of Good to be spearheaded by warriors of righteousness who, the moment they cross into an evil country, immediately butcher their own allies in accordance with local law!

[Xenocrat]

YourNewShoe wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

This is clearly the argument of a demonic infiltrator advising weakness and acceptance of lax discipline in the forces of good.

You're right, it'd be far better for the forces of Good to be spearheaded by warriors of righteousness who, the moment they cross into an evil country, immediately butcher their own allies in accordance with local law!

More lies by those using a veil of goodness to pursue evil. Our lady Iomedae's righteous chastisement of those who offended her, doing no harm, was clearly in accord with both the laws of her realm and the tenets of righteousness.

[Mightypion]

An issue that could use some fleshing out is the degree to which she has the "right" to do this to the PCs, if the PCs are devout servants of other deities.

Possible things the players could do without being jerks and completely being in character.

F.e. Gorrumite honorable warrior:
"I am sorry, but I am a servant of out Lord in Iron. By punishing me for knowing or not knowing parts of thy Dogma,you claim dominion over me. I will not waver in my faith, and would be honor bound to resist such encroachments upon my worship no matter the source. There are procedures for adjuciating such disputes, and given the domains shared by you and my lord, there are obvious ways.
I do not recommend jeopardizing our alliance by going for this procedure in the current grave situation, but honor demands that I would resist to the best of my abilities."
"I am your ally/servant of your ally, I am not your tributary or vasall and the honor of my lord would demands this reminder."

F.e. Someone who took Nocticulas offer due to fairly lawfull good reasons:
"Your grace, I do not deem it particularly prudent to invite a known and open servant of our lady in shadows directly into your home, the security implications of such an invitation are quite tempting in a variety of ways, and I would suggest it unwise, even arrogant, to tempt the lady in such a way. All the more so in the current grave situation. I am willing to vow serious vows or even accept a Geas to show my commitments towards the rescue of your herald, as long as these vows/geas are deemed reasonable by a jury of peers and do not conflict with previous vows made by me in free will."

The scene can be absolutely a gold mine of divine diplomacy, which can be a true blast to roleplay, and should perhaps be rewritten as such.

Essentially, this is an alliance of Desna (Chaotic Good), Iomedae (Lawfull Good) and Nocticula (at this point still mostly chaotic evil), and sub modules to recruit certain "lawful evil" deity like entities into the crusade can certainly be made as well.

I dont hate the scene, but it could be so much more.

[Stip]

I do plan to change this scene a bit when I run it, but I wrote the campaign prologue I posted a few threads above in part to nip the big problems of book V (why would they pause in the middle of saving the world to run a personal errand for Iomedae, and how can she be made more sympathetic).

I lay it out in that post, but the gist is

*I link the herald more directly to the PCs mythic ascension
*The herald sacrifices himself in personal service to Immedae
*I play up the fact that she cannot directly interfere because she is a god, and how frustrating her divine impotence is while she is watching her homeworld be ravaged. One of the best ways to make an overly powerful character sympathetic is to find a way to make them powerless, and force them to confront that powerlessness.

I'll let you know in two years when we get to book V if it worked. My players loved the prologue, though.

[Mightypion]

Stip wrote:

I do plan to change this scene a bit when I run it, but I wrote the campaign prologue I posted a few threads above in part to nip the big problems of book V (why would they pause in the middle of saving the world to run a personal errand for Iomedae, and how can she be made more sympathetic).

I lay it out in that post, but the gist is

*I link the herald more directly to the PCs mythic ascension
*The herald sacrifices himself in personal service to Immedae
*I play up the fact that she cannot directly interfere because she is a god, and how frustrating her divine impotence is while she is watching her homeworld be ravaged. One of the best ways to make an overly powerful character sympathetic is to find a way to make them powerless, and force them to confront that powerlessness.

I'll let you know in two years when we get to book V if it worked. My players loved the prologue, though.

I think you could just yeet the CRPGs approach, where the Herald also accompanies the party to Alyushinnara and acts as a backup of last resort/advisor/consience.