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No true clone theorem aside, of course... or not, given this is sci FANTASY and we don’t need to worry about perfect replication of all particle across space time!
Obviously, cloning exists in some forms - see that one place in Absalom station where everyone is a born clone of the same woman, and the mention of “no cloning” laws said enclave gets around by birthing themselves, but what are the source of those laws, and does the clone spell (“have an inert copy until you die”) somehow violate that? If it does, aren’t all bonesages inherently guilty by their electroencephalon? Most importantly [i]why doesn’t it exist as a sixth level speeeeeeelllllllllll?!?!
Starfinder is, like, literally the most perfect setting/system for that exact spell. Clone was always a bit “off theme” for full-on fantasy worlds, as the whole fetch/replica/etc. was covered by doppelgängers, simulacrum (also a bit “off theme” but less, being made of ice and snow or whatever), and so on. I mean, it worked - PF, like most every edition before it, was a gonzo (in a good way) pastiche of every setting under the sun. But for more “traditional” fantasy conceits, it was always one of those less-thematic abilities.
But for science fantasy? It ticks all the boxes: spell, sci-esque theming, and a nice “halfsies” point between divine (life/death/soul) and arcane (brew solutions up in a lab... a lab sounding sci-ish by nature, too)! It’s not even that much of a stretch to push it to sixth level spells...
I mean, an entire famous science fantasy space opera has a film, six (soon to be more?!) season television show, and (now “legendary”) book trilogy written about clones, cloning, and its fallout. (And yes, I did go chronological order, and no, I wasn’t referring to anything after the Zhan stuff, but that counts too).
Does anyone know if there are any ideas or plans for official release or exploration in the future? Any official reasons cited for it not being included?
I mean, I get simulacrum - it’s a potentially campaign-breaking spell with endless layers of arguments about it (though I think a hard light hologram spell should be a thing), but I wasn’t aware of such reasoning with cloning.
Thoughts?
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considering how broken the spell was and starfinders paradigm of "lets not make magic the thing that breaks everything" i'm not surprised the spell got dumped.
I do agree that cloning should be a thing. But in the context of this setting a spell seems the wrong way to implement it. Not that I want to start trouble but there was a post about insurance for adventures a little bit ago. I do not necessarily agree with space insurance and what not, but paying a company to clone you if you die and have it work like that bad schwarzenegger movie the sixth day might not be a bad idea and would be an alternative to the spell resurrection.
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Cloning is a thing in the setting. There's an entire ship full of clones mentioned in the backmatter of DS1 and Pact Worlds (it's in the Armada around Absalom Station). I'm pretty sure those are technological clones.
I could see biological cloning existing in cults, on that planet run by a Malebranche, and as a research program of the Aeon Guard.
Magical cloning? No, for the same reason BNW mentioned. Life preservation/restoration is a lot harder in Starfinder than Pathfinder. The Memory Crypt hybrid item in Armory walks that back slightly, at least giving you a way to bring back someone whose body is lost or disintegrated.
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considering how broken the spell was and starfinders paradigm of "lets not make magic the thing that breaks everything" i'm not surprised the spell got dumped.
How on earth was clone broken? It let you bypass death, sure, but took a lot of work, resources, and time (you needed a lab, time to grow and secrecy/guards to protect your investment). It literally didn't do anything else for you.
Simulacrum was broken. Clone never was.
considering how broken the spell was and starfinders paradigm of "lets not make magic the thing that breaks everything" i'm not surprised the spell got dumped.How on earth was clone broken? It let you bypass death, sure, but took a lot of work, resources, and time (you needed a lab, time to grow and secrecy/guards to protect your investment). It literally didn't do anything else for you.
Simulacrum was broken. Clone never was.
It was an automatic save game file reload. No one else could do that, and it made killing someone with a clone impossible, forcing cheese like Imprisonment or Stone to Flesh captures.
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You guys are awesome. You all help create and inspire my next plot point my campaign.
"ReNue Yu is a subsidiarity of Apsis Corp that specializes in cloning tech with ads geared to adventurers and people showing their age. With this tech they use brainwashed clones to do their seedy criminal work and set up the players."
Needa some more dev but fun start
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Clones and brain transplants for rich, old, unethical people should also be a thing at a blackmarket space station.
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Love the Farscape reference.
Maybe a weird Oras priest could be tinkering with such a device?
Genetic manipulation overall is super interesting, and it could be like that episode with the Geneticist Namtar trying to perfect himself.
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I would prefer cloning to be a technological or hybrid process rather than a spell, for it to take a long time (grow them in a vat for a month), and maybe not for its default use to be to create a soulless shell to act as a backup if you die.
I think the more interesting way for clone to work is it creates an npc with your body and personality but limited memories. If you want to use it as a backup body you either have to edit the genetic template to not create a life that has a soul or forcibly overwrite the mind of a sentient being via magic.
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It was an automatic save game file reload. No one else could do that, and it made killing someone with a clone impossible, forcing cheese like Imprisonment or Stone to Flesh captures.
No one else could do that? Everyone else had access to that past a certain level. At high levels, death is but a speed bump, as it should be. The real adventure is in meeting one's goals, not necessarily just in avoiding one's demise.
If you think avoiding death is broken, then you might want to look into a different game that doesn't have resurrection or reincarnate; a game where death means making a new character or leaving the table.
That isn't Starfinder though, so I still fail to see how clone would be broken if made into a 5th or 6th-level spell (with similar restrictions to its original Pathfinder counterpart).
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Everyone else had to depend on an outside force to care (and be able to) cast or hire the spell, wait for it to be prepared and paid for, and use an alternative that cost 5, 10, or 25 times as much as Clone.
Clone, on the other hand, was cheap, immediate (once you died), and didn't depend on the support of others caring or surviving a TPK.
It was an automatic save game file reload. No one else could do that, and it made killing someone with a clone impossible, forcing cheese like Imprisonment or Stone to Flesh captures.considering how broken the spell was and starfinders paradigm of "lets not make magic the thing that breaks everything" i'm not surprised the spell got dumped.How on earth was clone broken? It let you bypass death, sure, but took a lot of work, resources, and time (you needed a lab, time to grow and secrecy/guards to protect your investment). It literally didn't do anything else for you.
Simulacrum was broken. Clone never was.
Um... "cheese" like "much lower level spells" (stone to flesh) or "higher level spells that do exactly what they're meant to and bypass not just this one spell but a host of others" (imprisonment)?
Because that's really not that big a deal.
And it was by no means a "save game file reload" - it was a "let my character continue adventuring today, instead of having to make the game end so I can get my stuff back together."
I mean, you still lost all of your stuff (unless your teammates managed to keep it for you), and you still had to find a way to rejoin them wherever they happened to be (hopefully, you have enough leftover stuff that you can do that, easily). In order to pull it off, you either had to have people you trusted, or put a huge amount of personal resources into making the thing function, properly.
And, while still a sorcerer/wizard spell, there's a much lower level way of doing the same: contingency + either raise dead or reincarnate. The nice thing is that these are much more accessible scrolls, available at lower levels.
So, "anyone that can use a scroll" I guess.
And that's the thing, clone was child's play. It is nowhere near the top tier of broken things, and was kind of a wasted slot if you wanted to "break" something, especially since the clones weren't automatically preserved. One supposes you can use gentle repose on them, but that's not explicitly spelled out in either PF or 3.5 (though it's broadly presumed).
The contingency effect is far more potent, available four level earlier, and is much, much faster.
Clone was an, "oh, poop, our cleric - the only method of bringing us back - died, but it's okay, I still have a way he can come back..." spell that also had other nifty uses.
Life preservation/restoration is a lot harder in Starfinder than Pathfinder. The Memory Crypt hybrid item in Armory walks that back slightly, at least giving you a way to bring back someone whose body is lost or disintegrated.
Hey, you know what's a fantastic gaming experience? Sitting out the rest of the play session because my friends can't get me back to playing. This is especially awesome if I've taken someone all the way to 16th level. Wait, no, that's the opposite of fun.
"no spells! spells suck!"
I find it weird that people think that it shouldn't be done with magic, considering
a) the spell required a laboratory
b) the spell required a jar for you to grow the thing in
c) there is literally a class called "Technomancer" which is "magical technological hybrid thingy"
See, if magic and tech were supposed to be in opposition (as they are in some settings) I'd see that argument, but as it is, the "no, if it's a spell, because spell" seems to fail at the concept of a "magical science fantasy" that is the fundamental core of Starfinder, as a brand.
And I'm not suggesting you just say "credits = gold, spell is 6th level, we're done" and go on your way.
Clone was an interesting spell - it was surprisingly inexpensive for what it was (something Starfinder seems intent on avoiding, which is why costs might need to be reevaluated), but also required two to eight months (2d4), which is a pretty daggum long time for preparation. And it requires some sort of preservation, otherwise it rots right away.
EDIT: coding, dang it. :D
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Ok just wrote up an outline for this idea, let me know what you think.
RENUE YU
ReNue Yu is proud to offer non-surgical aesthetic treatments and death preventative services in the Ring of Absalom Station. Our Medical Treatment Center is privately owned and operated but located within the walls of the Bluerise Tower.
Our goal is to provide each patient with a customized and safe treatment. You can rest assured that our clinical team has extensive knowledge in cloning tech and memory grafting. Additionally, every provider at ReNue Yu is a licensed professional technician and is certified in the use of our machines.
Thank you for considering ReNue Yu. We invite you to take a peek at our menu of age-defying and life preserving services and meet the staff.
ReNue Yu procures a clone of you incase you are fatally injured or want to be younger. If you are wanting to be younger the process cost a mere 25,000 credits. For fatal injuries there is a 10-year service contract for 150,000, replacing you with a clone that has the memories you last stored in ReNue Yu digital vaults. You will also get a biologically integrated implant that will let them know if you pass.
There are financing options available. 10% of your net income until balance is paid in full if approved.
Once paid or payment plan approved you must come in for DNA extraction and brain mapping in order for ReNue Yu to have the necessary components for your new you.
ReNue Yu is a subsidiary of Aspis Consortium, one of the largest corporations in the Pact Worlds. Aspis Consortium is a very grey territory organization. Abadar Corp is the only larger corporation and they are run to the letter of the law as the moral line in the solar system. Aspis Consortium uses the tech at ReNue Yu to make brainwashed minions to commit crimes and, if need be, frame ReNue Yu clients. These minions have surveillance installed in them and a black hole/implosion device to destroy any evidence and frame the ReNue Yu client.
Nice!
I like the creepiness factor, and the hinted at concept that it's not really "you" (as SF defines it) just a clone with your memories (as it would be in more science fiction settings).
Perfectly reasonable that the Aspis would be behind the whole thing, too. Super solid!
Let's take a look at the arguments and counter arguments.
I'd like to clarify what people have said.
Problem the first listed in this thread: "it's the only way to get back in the game without relying on someone else"
- Rebuttal: you absolutely need someone (or something) else, because otherwise, your clone lab is easily found and destroyed; if you can avoid that, though, it's not the clone lab, it's the other rules that let you do that (and simulacrum, by way of example, lets you do both at the same time).
Problem the second listed in this thread: "it's the only way to auto-avoid a TPK!"
- Rebuttal: it depends on what you mean by a TPK; that said, TPKs are generally agreed to suck, massively, as, even if you allow all new characters to be brought in that are somehow super-high level and make it narratively make sense, the new characters have less investment in the narrative over-all
Problem the third listed in this thread: "no one else can just keep getting better!"
- Rebuttal: while space liches bone sages can start at pretty much any level in this edition, do so faster, and do so more reliably, let's presume you mean "to actual real life" - and yes, sure, that's a thing; but anyone that has access to spells beyond casting them from your own pool (be it by scrolls gems, or by whatever else) can do the same thing. A class may have access to casting it, but anyone can buy the basics at the same levels.
Problem the fourth listed in this thread: "it erases the penalty for failure" (this is related to the above)
- Rebuttal: it absolutely does no such thing. In addition to the standard "coming back from the dead" penalties, it also requires that either you expend costs and resources for a "just in case" well in advance, or that you expend costs and resources to sit out for a few months*. Either way, this represents a penalty. Either you will be separated from your stuff which is usually your best stuff (and, if it's not, that means you're actively running around with less-than-your-best stuff, which is its own cost), or your friends, or both. It takes even more resources to put all those things back together, again.
*
Problem the fifth listed in this thread: "magic cloning is not acceptable; should be technological cloning"
- Rebuttal: that certainly seems a fair personal flavor preference. As noted, purely magical cloning has always felt odd in a purely fantasy world (though PF and the preceding editions never really were), but in a science-fantasy with an emphasis on hybrid magic-and-technology (you have a class, you have spells, you have items, and you have creatures), there is zero reason to presuppose the spell is purely a magical thing and not a tech thing. In fact, everything you'd typically expect from a tech-based clone is already present in the spell - the only "non-tech" thing is that it also requires you to cast a spell.
----------------------------
While my rebuttals are not entirely comprehensive in every way, and should not be presumed to be "infinitely persuasive" (i.e. they are not inherently the last or most definitive word) does that sum up the arguments, as they line up, at present? Am I missing something?
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I believe so Tacticslion. But you just added to my idea above. The reason Renue Yu is the only corp with this tech is they have claimed it purely tech based but that spark or soul that sro and the undead player race have can be pulled from the afterlife and tethered to the clone with magic. A corruption of the speak with dead spell that is taboo on eox and outright outlawed in the rest of the pact worlds.
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I just realized that I am ripping of the name Renue Yu. It is Renuyu or RenuYou from Batman the animated series. The stuff that makes clayface. Oops :P
But on the cloning thing, I think Paizo has not said one way or another on this because it is such a trope in Sci Fi that we the players can use it how we wish without being pidgion hold into official rules. Somethings in RPGs have to have direct rules like combat and item creation. But with cloning, something I do not think characters should be hands on about at all, can be more a tool for a GM. Something to their flavor and/or more nebulus.
Let me ask you all, do you want defined rules for cloning? Be it science, magic or both?
To contradict myself, a Mystic could ask their god or patron to clone someone, even themselves, and as a DM I may allow it at the cost of their spells for the day.
I just realized that I am ripping of the name Renue Yu. It is Renuyu or RenuYou from Batman the animated series. The stuff that makes clayface. Oops :P
I kind of thought it was an intentional homage (and kind of suspected that you'd have someone named "Dagger" or "Dargon" or something as the head of said corporation). :D
But on the cloning thing, I think Paizo has not said one way or another on this because it is such a trope in Sci Fi that we the players can use it how we wish without being pidgion hold into official rules. Somethings in RPGs have to have direct rules like combat and item creation. But with cloning, something I do not think characters should be hands on about at all, can be more a tool for a GM. Something to their flavor and/or more nebulus.
Let me ask you all, do you want defined rules for cloning? Be it science, magic or both?
To contradict myself, a Mystic could ask their god or patron to clone someone, even themselves, and as a DM I may allow it at the cost of their spells for the day.
I much prefer to have a codified version for the simple reason that "leaving it up to the GM" is a valid tactic for literally anything else in the game as well. Guns, damage, how much you can carry, what various costs are, what effect armor has, how lethal it is to go outside... all these things and more are easily arbitrated, even though they are fundamental tropes in Sci Fi.
Basically, I think the thing exists in setting, so it should have rules that associate with it. That said, SF is clearly not like that... but in this case it should be, because, the way I suggest it, cloning directly effects,
Somethings in RPGs have to have direct rules like combat and item creation.
... at least as much as the raise dead spell, or ability to charm person does.
There are other things that are closer to rules-lite or non-rules cloning: two such being the insemination cloning (done by the one group I mentioned in the OP where every member is a born clone of the same woman, raised and trained by the enclave of fellow clones), the "new person" cloning (such as Tender Tendrils suggested or as an interpretation of your own).
And that's the kind of stuff you don't need the spell for.
But having an actual set of rules for coming back from the dead in your own cloned body is literally both a rules legacy and super on-theme for the whole "magic-and-technology" Starfinder setting (nevermind all the precedent in other scifi/sci-fantasy works), and having such options mandates some level of rules involvement.
I would prefer cloning to be a technological or hybrid process rather than a spell, for it to take a long time (grow them in a vat for a month), and maybe not for its default use to be to create a soulless shell to act as a backup if you die.
I think the more interesting way for clone to work is it creates an npc with your body and personality but limited memories. If you want to use it as a backup body you either have to edit the genetic template to not create a life that has a soul or forcibly overwrite the mind of a sentient being via magic.
This is the kind that's restricted.
Simar Communion: The human women of the Simar Communion rarely allow outsiders beyond the reception area of their floating commune—and it’s easy to tell who’s an outsider, for every member of the Communion is technically the same person. For the last hundred years, this station has been home to an unknown number of identical clones, who span a full range of ages from infant to elderly. While the technology to create an adult clone is both restricted and incredibly expensive on most Pact Worlds, members of the Communion get around this by simply raising their clone-sisters from “birth,” training them in the art of being Simar. Though they’re often sought for their knowledge of human genetics, psychic magic, and implant free biohacking, it’s also an open secret that the Communion’s intense training regimen and near-religious dedication to self control make them impressive operatives and assassins. As the old Armadan adage goes, when a Simar leaves her home, someone is about to have a very bad day.
This is the kind of more readily available cloning used to great effect by these folks.
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Fair point.
Life preservation/restoration is a lot harder in Starfinder than Pathfinder.
You know, I accepted this at face value, but... is it? In what way?
Reincarnate is still 4th level (though that's a 10th level character instead of 7th), and Raise Dead is still 5th level (though that's a 13th level character instead of 9th).
The Memory Crypt hybrid item in Armory walks that back slightly, at least giving you a way to bring back someone whose body is lost or disintegrated.
Do tell!
The arguments for magical cloning is why I made the important distinction of it shouldn't be purely magical - it should be a hybrid or technological process rather than a discrete spell (more like pathfinders process for creating a golem in how it is presented, rather than a single spell entry).
I feel like this way makes it more interesting and helps to highlight it needing a lab and tech and genetic material etc, as opposed to a spell where those processes aren't very focused on and there are potentially ways to ignore them.
The arguments for magical cloning is why I made the important distinction of it shouldn't be purely magical - it should be a hybrid or technological process rather than a discrete spell (more like pathfinders process for creating a golem in how it is presented, rather than a single spell entry).
I feel like this way makes it more interesting and helps to highlight it needing a lab and tech and genetic material etc, as opposed to a spell where those processes aren't very focused on and there are potentially ways to ignore them.
That suits me just fine. It's not like people are going to want a non-sterile medieval lab anyways.
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Life preservation/restoration is a lot harder in Starfinder than Pathfinder.You know, I accepted this at face value, but... is it? In what way?
Reincarnate is still 4th level (though that's a 10th level character instead of 7th), and Raise Dead is still 5th level (though that's a 13th level character instead of 9th).
The Memory Crypt hybrid item in Armory walks that back slightly, at least giving you a way to bring back someone whose body is lost or disintegrated.Do tell!
1. There's no Resurrection/True Resurrection option, so a destroyed/disintegrated/lost body means that you're permanently lost. Even reincarnate requires a small bit of your body, Raise Dead requires something that could survive if healed/restored, so you need to be stable before Regenerate is applied - major body loss = Reincarnate as your only option. You also have to collect the body piece after death, so no prestoring a bit as insurance against catastrophic loss.
You also face a hard time limit of days/CL, although given how fast drift travel is to Absalom, this shouldn't be a problem if your ship is working.
2. I misunderstood the Memory Crypt, I thought it could overcome the need for a body part, but it only replaces the (cheaper!) non-body material component, so it's actually worse than crafting/buying the standard spell component.
Life preservation/restoration is a lot harder in Starfinder than Pathfinder.You know, I accepted this at face value, but... is it? In what way?
Reincarnate is still 4th level (though that's a 10th level character instead of 7th), and Raise Dead is still 5th level (though that's a 13th level character instead of 9th).
The Memory Crypt hybrid item in Armory walks that back slightly, at least giving you a way to bring back someone whose body is lost or disintegrated.Do tell!1. There's no Resurrection/True Resurrection option, so a destroyed/disintegrated/lost body means that you're permanently lost. Even reincarnate requires a small bit of your body, Raise Dead requires something that could survive if healed/restored, so you need to be stable before Regenerate is applied - major body loss = Reincarnate as your only option. You also have to collect the body piece after death, so no prestoring a bit as insurance against catastrophic loss.
You also face a hard time limit of days/CL, although given how fast drift travel is to Absalom, this shouldn't be a problem if your ship is working.
2. I misunderstood the Memory Crypt, I thought it could overcome the need for a body part, but it only replaces the (cheaper!) non-body material component, so it's actually worse than crafting/buying the standard spell component.
Interesting. As to number 1, however, though it wouldn't work for all purposes, for regeneration, couldn't you simply get a biochain adapted prosthetic hand?
That would tend to be the same for most purposes I could think of. That said, resurrection should be able to be handled by the miracle or wish spell, though, again, that's pushed back by a few levels (it's notable, however, that the others wouldn't be automatically more difficult - generally, you could have access at nearly the same level by purchasing the spells, which are broadly available for purchase two levels "early" - that's about putting it back to where you used to be able to cast it).
Still, your point is well-taken! Neat!
It does, however, seem exceedingly weird to me. It seems to violate several science fantasy concepts of the genre-like conventions broadly presumed in the game, so that's weird. Still, thanks!
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Use of Wish/Miracle to resurrect would be an unsafe or more powerful than normal use subject to GM limitation, refusal, or twisting.
I note that AP 2 has the level 8 Annihilator fusion for disintegration of those you kill so that they can’t be brought back. Thematic for Devourer cultists, practical for assassins.
To put simply, a clone of someone with a copy of their memories *is not that person*, unless they also have their soul.
I'm amazed that someone calling themselves Metaphysician could think this.
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To put simply, a clone of someone with a copy of their memories *is not that person*, unless they also have their soul.I'm amazed that someone calling themselves Metaphysician could think this.
He's a doctor Jim, not a priest.
Souls explicitly exist in Starfinder. This is verifiable "scientific" fact. Not the right soul, not the right person, simple as that.
The soul is just an energy field that continues on after death and gets converted into other stuff after judgement. There's no reason to think that a new soul in an identical body with identical memories isn't an identical soul.
Souls explicitly exist in Starfinder. This is verifiable "scientific" fact. Not the right soul, not the right person, simple as that.The soul is just an energy field that continues on after death and gets converted into other stuff after judgement. There's no reason to think that a new soul in an identical body with identical memories isn't an identical soul.
Not to pick a side but is that in starfinder? If so could you let me know book and page?
Not to pick a side but is that in starfinder? If so could you let me know book and page?Souls explicitly exist in Starfinder. This is verifiable "scientific" fact. Not the right soul, not the right person, simple as that.The soul is just an energy field that continues on after death and gets converted into other stuff after judgement. There's no reason to think that a new soul in an identical body with identical memories isn't an identical soul.
That's Pathfinder souls, there's no reason to think it has changed.
This is just sophmore level transporter duplication stuff, adding a soul doesn't change anything. It's just energy that mirrors/records the consequences of the (fundamentally materialistic) actions of the meatbag it's attached to.
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I had never seen that in pathfinder either. Your last statement sounds more like an opinion. Just looking up the pathfinder wiki, the souls page lends its self to Metaphysician's statement more so. Souls start undefined but life gives them shape and personality. Thus they are judged individually for their life, and therefore unique.
Casually like this had never faded ever,
Seriously, though, this is a thing in Pathfinder. Just what.
(Also, I accidental'd upon another thread.)
God it'd be so bad if Clone was a spell in a system where everyone is a spontaneous caster.
The Magic Academy Student archetype's metadominance would increase further.
God it'd be so bad if Clone was a spell in a system where everyone is a spontaneous caster.
(1) I linked to an item, but
(2) why, in particular?The Magic Academy Student archetype's metadominance would increase further.
Eh. "Metadominance" seems rather silly in this instance. EDIT: To be clear, it's because the "metadominance" already exists, and things like reincarnate and raise dead are actually better in that they are more immediate, flexible, and able to get you back into the action (though raise dead is hypothetically more expensive).
The only problem with having clone as a spell is "allowing the game to continue in case the worst case scenario happens at a very high level" which... doesn't really seem like a problem to me.
And, you know, as written clones take 2d4 months to grow and don't come with automatic storage options (and there's no gentle repose option, so that likely means a very expensive replacement). So you're either going to do this well in advance (which is kind of the point) or you're going to wait for a very long time for your PCs to get up and running again.
And none of this is to say an SF spell of clone would be identical to the current 8th level PF spell of the same name (or that it should be a "spell" at all) - merely that using even the current in-spell example seems like a compelling case for this to exist within the rules system as they currently are.
Anyway, to answer my own question, the clear answer as to "why" is because clone is an 8th level PF spell, and they left the levels the same in SF for returning from the dead, but there is no caster capable of 8th level spells (outside of importing them via the rules mentioned in the back of the Core).
EDIT: To be clear, this isn't me saying it's a good thing it doesn't exist. It's me saying that the reasoning is because it's "too big" as conceived of in PF for being ported over according to the current standards of porting such things.
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(1) I linked to an item, but
I was saying that to the general topic of the thread.
(2) why, in particular?
Because a spell's known system incentivizes you to have spells you'll actually frequently use, rather than downtime spells.
(1) I linked to an item, but
I was saying that to the general topic of the thread.
Ah, gotcha. As we'd already talked about the spell earlier in the thread, I had been under the impression you were caught up and just responding to the most recent thing added instead! Clarification mode: enabled~! :D
(2) why, in particular?
Because a spell's known system incentivizes you to have spells you'll actually frequently use, rather than downtime spells.
That said, as a spell, I'm still not clear how it'd be "so bad" in this case.
Do you mean it'd be "so bad" because:
- the PCs would be constantly intentionally allowing themselves to die or whatever ()
- the PCs would be unable to challenge because they're "immune to death" ()
- the PCs would always be running short on funds because they would constantly use clone all the time, which costs money ()
... or for some other reason?
But as for "downtime" spells, just from scanning a spell list on AoN we've got:
- terraform (takes one hour, costs 30k)
- reincarnate (takes 10 minutes, and a "special monument" costing 1k, and 1 hour to complete)
- raise dead (takes 1 minute, costs 5k)
- Akashic revival (takes 1 minute, is a very "clone lite" approach)
- summon drift beacons (takes 1 hour)
- reanimate (takes 1 minute, and a "complex representation" costing 7.5k)
- planar binding (takes 10 minutes, probably costs something idk ["or perhaps for some reward"])
- awaken computer (takes 10 minutes)
None of those, except (perhaps) reanimate or awaken computer seem like something that is incentivized to use regularly (also maybe planar binding, depending), and certainly not particularly in battle (raise dead, Akashic revival, and reanimate are pooooooossible combat/encounter spells, but none of them are going to be used in typical encounters all that often).
I'm not even aiming for it to be a spell in particular, but I don't think the logic bears out that it'd be bade because it'd be a downtime spell.
There are definitely clones in Starfinder, they factor heavily into an already existing AP -- which is probably why Simulacrum doesn't exist since the design philosophy of Starfinder has been pretty consistently "Don't use a fireball spell when an incendiary grenade will do"
Aspis as presented in scenarios so far isn't as bad as they used to be. But their entry in the core book goes far beyond as to how bad they've gotten.
Their entry in Serpents in The Cradle (AP #41) really gives me Weyland-Yutani vibes, which I think is appropriate.
None of those spells you mention are downtime based. If it's being accomplished in the middle of an adventuring day without much issue, it is definitely not a downtime thing.
Ok just wrote up an outline for this idea, let me know what you think.
RENUE YU
ReNue Yu is proud to offer non-surgical aesthetic treatments and death preventative services in the Ring of Absalom Station. Our Medical Treatment Center is privately owned and operated but located within the walls of the Bluerise Tower.Our goal is to provide each patient with a customized and safe treatment. You can rest assured that our clinical team has extensive knowledge in cloning tech and memory grafting. Additionally, every provider at ReNue Yu is a licensed professional technician and is certified in the use of our machines.
Thank you for considering ReNue Yu. We invite you to take a peek at our menu of age-defying and life preserving services and meet the staff.
ReNue Yu procures a clone of you incase you are fatally injured or want to be younger. If you are wanting to be younger the process cost a mere 25,000 credits. For fatal injuries there is a 10-year service contract for 150,000, replacing you with a clone that has the memories you last stored in ReNue Yu digital vaults. You will also get a biologically integrated implant that will let them know if you pass.
There are financing options available. 10% of your net income until balance is paid in full if approved.
Once paid or payment plan approved you must come in for DNA extraction and brain mapping in order for ReNue Yu to have the necessary components for your new you.ReNue Yu is a subsidiary of Aspis Consortium, one of the largest corporations in the Pact Worlds. Aspis Consortium is a very grey territory organization. Abadar Corp is the only larger corporation and they are run to the letter of the law as the moral line in the solar system. Aspis Consortium uses the tech at ReNue Yu to make brainwashed minions to commit crimes and, if need be, frame ReNue Yu clients. These minions have surveillance installed in them and a black hole/implosion device to destroy any evidence and frame the ReNue Yu client.
If you still play with this, as an additional bit of devilry, have them infiltrated by Reptoids, who replace those that they feel can be used to further their own goals. See the Three Fold Conspiracy, especially books three and four, for additional information and tools on how that could work.