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First explaining why CR13 treachery demons are being discussed at this stage and why I am testing them against lvl 12 characters.
(Spoiler for DD5, Heroes of Undarin)
2 treachery demons are the 2nd encounter in DD5, Heroes of Undarin. Pitted against 4 12-lvl charatcers , with predetermined equipment (limited customization options).
A treachery demon has +28 to initiative score. A typical 12 level PC has +13 to +17 Perception initiative score. Means treachery demons act first in any fight by default.
A treachery demon casts confusion (at will) with DC 30 and has enormous Intimidate bonus of +26. A typical lvl 12 PC has +16 to +21 Will save bonus (12 for level, +3 for +3 armor, +1-5 for Wisdom modifier). That means they mostly fail saving throws against confusion, critically failing them about 10-20% of time.
When using Intimidate to demoralize, a treachery demon rolls critical success with 11-15 on its d20, sending the target PC fleeing at a cost of single action.
Guess what it means?
This part of DD claims to be a test of endurance for PCs. In practice, it turned to be Seligman’s dog training for players, who could not do much, having no functional means of resisting the controlling effects. It was a TPK, and should be a TPK with any GM who plays the demons appropriately without cheating in favor of PCs. The group was not anywhere low on their resources, they were just helpless.I doubt DD5 playtest results are going to be telling anything about character endurance if the 2nd encounter remains as it is.
That’s where rules cheating in favor of monsters give some really frustrating results.
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It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
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It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
Thanks.
Agree on overpowered, right now all monsters just devalue players' efforts to be efficient.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's... hmm. Poor crusaders.
It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
This needs to be adressed in an official update document. It does not matter if Mark or anybody else says that in the forum. A post in the forum is not an official announcement. If they already know the problem, they should put it in the next update (I won't change any rule or stat block unless there is an official document telling me to do so).
That's... hmm. Poor crusaders.
This needs to be adressed in an official update document. It does not matter if Mark or anybody else says that in the forum. A post in the forum is not an official announcement. If they already know the problem, they should put it in the next update (I won't change any rule or stat block unless there is an official document telling me to do so).It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
They should make an official announcement for a lot of things but lol why be so obstinate? You'll only hurt your own games.
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They should make an official announcement for a lot of things but lol why be so obstinate? You'll only hurt your own games.That's... hmm. Poor crusaders.
This needs to be adressed in an official update document. It does not matter if Mark or anybody else says that in the forum. A post in the forum is not an official announcement. If they already know the problem, they should put it in the next update (I won't change any rule or stat block unless there is an official document telling me to do so).It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
Because we're not playtesting the forums, we're playtesting the rules.
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| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's... hmm. Poor crusaders.
This needs to be adressed in an official update document. It does not matter if Mark or anybody else says that in the forum. A post in the forum is not an official announcement. If they already know the problem, they should put it in the next update (I won't change any rule or stat block unless there is an official document telling me to do so).It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
They absolutely should, but the degree of this problem varies by the level of the monster. That means they basically have to redo the entire Bestiary to do this properly (and the Adventure, given that some monster stats are in that).
That's absolutely doable given that they're both PDFs, but it does take some time to do it. I absolutely expect such an update, but the logistics may make it take a while.
And I wasn't really arguing that you should use the revised stats before they become official (though you can), I was noting that a large part of this issue was due to a known rules problem that is going to be corrected. I was more reassuring people that the particular issue with Skills will be at least partially dealt with than anything else.
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They should make an official announcement for a lot of things but lol why be so obstinate? You'll only hurt your own games.That's... hmm. Poor crusaders.
This needs to be adressed in an official update document. It does not matter if Mark or anybody else says that in the forum. A post in the forum is not an official announcement. If they already know the problem, they should put it in the next update (I won't change any rule or stat block unless there is an official document telling me to do so).It's been clarified that all 13th level monsters have +3 to all skills over what they should have. The rest of their stats are intended, but that part is not.
They may well still be overpowered (I lean in that direction myself), but the skills should be lower than they are, and the fact that they aren't is an error.
Because Paizo's taking feedback based on how it's written.
The free-form survey would allow you to explain, but they aren't connected to the numeric surveys which cannot distinguish that you used different numbers.So for home-grown, sure, do it. For playtesting it'd be really nice to have a generic rule of thumb we know they know we're using (perhaps having a question in the survey to verify for tabulation's sake).
As for the OP, it's a level+3 encounter, which would typically involve some foreknowledge for preparation AND be a whole day's effort (as seen in the "Mirrored Moon" section.) So yep, a TPK, just as they wanted, though perhaps too early. It sounds like that's going to be one of the larger hurdles.
I can't say I plan on devoting too much time to prepping the later monsters...
After a bit more thought...
Confusion at will can lock down a player (because they babble one round even on a success), while still allowing the T-demon to get in a Strike every round against another until enough PCs are failing.
According to DD, the T-demons come in on opposite sides, so I find it odd both had two targets within 30' (the range of Demoralize & Confusion) since the PCs had two rounds to act in between (so likely formed up to get some healing or at least not be separate).
I also learned from the example to split their initiatives!
The T-demons have four tactics given:
1. Use Reverse Gravity to block (which goes 40' high BTW, so doesn't reach the ceiling as implied by DD). With all the debris, this effect should be obvious. Also, it's 20' wide in a 25' temple, so there should be a way around. Awkwardly, this hinders them too since they don't fly and can't do much beyond 30'.
2. Harry foes w/ powerful spells; Dispel Magic & Confusion appear to be the only ones that "harry"! (so Confusion round two at earliest)
3. Attack w/ pincers if engaged in melee (so no Confusion if PC can get past the Reverse Gravity field on their first round, which most could do.)
4. Cast Mirror Image after damaged badly.
These are not the best tactics they could use, even as individuals, but that's what there is. I always wonder when I see bad tactics how much the writers factored them in. Doubly so under playtesting's rigor.
I kind of expect a party to swarm the nearest one while the other laments putting itself behind a Reverse Gravity! Being huge, it'd have to DimDoor to get by, but then again, it's supposed to be harrying!
"I am the demon of dispelling!!"
Hmm...
Now I'm wondering if Paizo's testing our dedication to RAW tactics!
Cheers
AS for tactics, demons have to do with using their last action in round anyway. Reverse gravity and confusion are both 2-action spells, so both of them leave monsters a chance to move, or to use a skill, such as Intimidate.
I believe such "unplanned" monster powerful abilities should absolutely pointed out during playtesting. If written tactics miss something, a playtest is THE moment to say 'Guys, your monsters are way more powerful than you think, they ave an autocritting crowd-control ability against group to use as one action, unlimited use".
A treachery demon has +28 to initiative score. A typical 12 level PC has +13 to +17 Perception initiative score. Means treachery demons act first in any fight by default.
The Doomsday Dawn book lists them at +28 using Deception but the Bestiary does state that Treachery Demons get a +2 circumstance bonus if they use Deception for Initiative. That makes it where unless players are rolling nat 20's and all have a +17 the demon has to roll a 6 or lower to not go first. Which is obviously extremely unlikely.