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Okay,
Now... Being the Paladin fanboy that I am I am trying to be calm... Trying to be super calm... Trying to be very polite and understanding... Trying to...
What in the heck do you think you guys are doing to the Holy Avenger!?!
Okay... Now that that is out of my system...
Seriously... What did you guys do?
That is the most iconic weapon in Dungeons and Dragons history!
It is... A +3 weapon? What. The. Holy. NO!
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The gleaming holy avenger is the iconic weapon of powerful
paladins. The crossbar and hilt of this +3 cold iron longsword are
styled to look like angel wings. Tradition holds that those who
see their reflection in a holy avenger’s highly polished blade have
their faults laid bare.
When you activate the sword, you can use a separate Interact
action to point it at a creature you can see. You learn if that
creature is evil; this is a 2nd-level divination and detection spell.
A non-good creature attempting to wield a holy avenger is
enfeebled 2. This condition can’t be removed in any way until the
creature removes the weapon from its person.
If you’re a paladin, you also gain the following two benefits.
• When you critically hit an evil creature with the holy avenger,
the creature is slowed 1 and enfeebled 2 for 1 round.
• After you hit a creature with the holy avenger, you can spend
your next action to activate the sword to cast dispel magic at
the same level as your champion powers. This dispel magic can
target either an illusion the creature created or a mental effect
the creature cast on you or one of your allies. You must be
within 120 feet of the illusion or ally to dispel the effect. Once
per day, you can use this dispel magic to instead target a spell
affecting the creature you hit or an item that creature wears
or carries.
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Come on guys, no, this is unacceptable.
Jump the sucker to level 18 if you must but the Holy Avenger is supposed to be THE most powerful sword in the book when held by a Paladin.
Also why is it working for non-Paladins AT ALL.
The Holy Avenger has always been as follows:
A +2 Longsword that, in the hands of a Paladin becomes a +5 Holy Weapon that grants some form of protection (typically SR) and a Magic Circle against Evil and is Holy.
What... What is this thing? This isn't a Holy Avenger. Someone has some 'splaining to do.
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You can add better proficiency runes to named magic weapons so +3 is a minimum but not a maximum.
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Because not all games go to level 20, this offers the viability of having the sword be a slightly more generic brand of paladin based weapon accessible to more games without being world breaking. This is then followed by the option to add runes and such to make it stronger, or the DM Fiat to introduce a name brand Excalibur or some such that's more suitable to end game.
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
It's Seifter, not Seifer. If you want people to listen to you, pronouncing their names correctly is usually not a bad starting point.
Also, it's 2018 and we're still doing "guys" even when we know that there are women working at the company and writing games?
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Gorbacz wrote: It's Seifter, not Seifer. If you want people to listen to you, pronouncing their names correctly is usually not a bad starting point.
Also, it's 2018 and we're still doing "guys" even when we know that there are women working at the company and writing games?
Seriously?
That is what you took from this?
That is the most strawman attack I've ever seen.
How about you comment on the item in question?
In this case this weapon is horribly weak compared to every predecessor to bear the name: "Holy Avenger"
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
HWalsh wrote: Gorbacz wrote: It's Seifter, not Seifer. If you want people to listen to you, pronouncing their names correctly is usually not a bad starting point.
Also, it's 2018 and we're still doing "guys" even when we know that there are women working at the company and writing games?
Seriously?
That is what you took from this?
That is the most strawman attack I've ever seen.
How about you comment on the item in question?
In this case this weapon is horribly weak compared to every predecessor to bear the nane: "Holy Avenger" I honestly couldn't care less about the Holy Avenger. Getting emotionally attached to magic items in games and outraged about them is ... I'll stop here. But you did do your best to present your issue in a way that dissuades from even discussing it on merits, so I thought I'd let you know. I've seen people cripple their arguments with the way they presented them more than few times in my career. Sometimes, I've goaded them into doing so. Sometimes, to my horror, they were my clients who, despite advice to contrary, decided to sabotage their own case by speaking What They Really Think.
People during this playtest commit that mistake in such ample amounts that it's silly. If you want to know how to state a case in a way that will have people notice, look to DeadManWalking. S_he is the eptiome on how to be critical yet level-headed enough not to turn people away in an instant.
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Gorbacz wrote: HWalsh wrote: Gorbacz wrote: It's Seifter, not Seifer. If you want people to listen to you, pronouncing their names correctly is usually not a bad starting point.
Also, it's 2018 and we're still doing "guys" even when we know that there are women working at the company and writing games?
Seriously?
That is what you took from this?
That is the most strawman attack I've ever seen.
How about you comment on the item in question?
In this case this weapon is horribly weak compared to every predecessor to bear the nane: "Holy Avenger" I honestly couldn't care less about the Holy Avenger. Getting emotionally attached to magic items in games and outraged about them is ... I'll stop here. But you did do your best to present your issue in a way that dissuades from even discussing it on merits, so I thought I'd let you know. I've seen people cripple their arguments with the way they presented them more than few times in my career. Sometimes, I've goaded them into doing so. Sometimes, to my horror, they were my clients who, despite advice to contrary, decided to sabotage their own case by speaking What They Really Think.
People during this playtest commit that mistake in such ample amounts that it's silly. If you want to know how to state a case in a way that will have people notice, look to DeadManWalking. S_he is the eptiome on how to be critical yet level-headed enough not to turn people away in an instant. In this case, yes the Holy Avenger is an item that has history attached to it. You can't use the name and produce a terribly gutted item without angering people. This is legacy. It is part of the Paladin and Paizo has shown they understand the value of legacy.
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Asuet wrote: Bardarok and Shiroi already explained everything.
a) Runes can be upgraded
b) +5 means it could only be introduced in a lvl 20 campaign. That's why it's a level 14 +3 weapon
That isn't a good enough answer quite frankly.
Why would I take a Holy Avenger over any other weapon at current at level 14.
I can already get a +3 weapon by that point. Heck the Holy Avenger is a +3 weapon for *everyone* when the main part of its legacy is that it was a special weapon that was almost useless for anyone who wasn't a Paladin.
This is a Holy Avenger. It is the most iconic weapon in Dungeons and Dragons. This has been turned into just another sword.
Heck, a Paladin doesn't even need this sword. Paladins by this point can already detect evil.
"When you critically hit an evil creature with the holy avenger,
the creature is slowed 1 and enfeebled 2 for 1 round. "
This is just weak and pathetic for a sword that is supposed to be the be-all, end-all, of Paladin weaponry.
Here are the Holy Avengers of the past:
AD&D:
Quote: Sword, +5 Holy Avenger: In the hands of any character other than a paladin, this holy sword will perform only as a sword +2. In the hands of a paladin, however, it creates a magic resistance of 50% in a 5' radius, dispels magic in a 5' radius at the level of magic use equal to the experience level of the paladin, and inflicts +10 points of bonus damage upon chaotic evil opponents. 2nd Edition AD&D:
Quote: Sword, +5 Holy Avenger: In the hands of any character other than a paladin, this holy sword will perform only as a sword +2. In the hands of a paladin, however, it creates a magic resistance of 50% in a 5' radius, dispels magic in a 5' radius at the level of magic use equal to the experience level of the paladin, the Holy Avenger can be used to cast Dispel Magic at will. D&D 3.0
Quote: Holy Avenger: This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.
It provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin’s level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the wielder to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.)
Pathfinder
Quote: This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.
When wielded by a paladin, this sacred weapon provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin’s class level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the paladin to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.
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This is a weapon that has remained relatively unchanged since it's creation in the 70's and there is no reason for Paizo to mechanically alter it in the manner that they have.
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What exactly are you missing?
Missing holy is no issue since you can get it all day long as a paladin by level 10.
The crit effect is very powerful. Slowed 1 alone is a massive debuff. Adding enfeebled 2 to that is very powerful.
The dispel magic is also a very powerful effect since it takes only one action. That's way more powerful than spending a standard action (I.e. basically your whole turn) in PF1.
Spell resistance on a PC was always more of a hindrance than a help in PF1. Also, SR 5+level is very little and any significant caster will just blow through it.
The +3 bonus doesn't matter either since you can improve it.
The sense evil power is way more precise than he sense evil feat of the paladin. Also, since non-paladins can use the sword, not everyone wielding it might be able to get sense evil.
So, what's wrong with the weapon? Just the fact that paladins are no longer the only ones who can use it effectively?
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The Holy Avenger is perfectly fine in the context of the rest of the PF2 rules and power levels.
Blave wrote: So, what's wrong with the weapon? Just the fact that paladins are no longer the only ones who can use it effectively? Partially that. This was the Paladin's holy weapon.
It was a special thing *for* Paladins.
Non-Paladins need not apply. It was a nearly legendary item. Not just a common sword.
Non paladins don't want to apply. It's more expensive than a +3 weapon without any benefit for them.
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Xenocrat wrote: Non paladins don't want to apply. It's more expensive than a +3 weapon without any benefit for them. Paizo needs to fix this. That weapon needs to be restored to its full power. This is almost insulting.
Druids can use the staff of fire now, all casters share their entire spell list with another class, spells as powerful as level 8 are readily available to non-casters.
I really don't see much space for class specific items items in this design.
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It appears to be pretty much par for the course with the new rules changes. It appears that everything is being changed to fit in with the new paradigm, for better or worse.
Not a fan of all the changes myself. This is just another straw to add to the pile.
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