Dying rules are going to lead to a lot of coup-de-grâce actions.

[Matthew Downie]

gwynfrid wrote:

Any monster who's simply attacking out of hunger will probably take a bite out of the downed PC. Then there's zombies ("brains!"). Either way, this looks like being down is more dangerous than it was in PF1...

I don't see the difference. If a monster is defending itself against the rest of the party, then it won't attack the downed PC (unless you have a killer GM). If, for whatever reason, it does decide to finish off the downed PC, then it can do so fairly easily. This was true in PF1 as well.

[gwynfrid]

Matthew Downie wrote:

gwynfrid wrote:

Any monster who's simply attacking out of hunger will probably take a bite out of the downed PC. Then there's zombies ("brains!"). Either way, this looks like being down is more dangerous than it was in PF1...

I don't see the difference. If a monster is defending itself against the rest of the party, then it won't attack the downed PC (unless you have a killer GM). If, for whatever reason, it does decide to finish off the downed PC, then it can do so fairly easily. This was true in PF1 as well.

In PF1, the monster has to wait for the next round, unless it has multiple attacks + it was doing a full attack action in the first place + it has an attack left after downing the PC. In PF2, as long as the monster has one of 3 actions left, it strike again, right away. I expect finishing off a PC will happen more in PF2, because the conditions for it will occur more frequently.

Another conclusion is that the Diehard feat makes a great deal of sense. It means a single monster can't finish the PC off in one round nearly as easily: it needs to score a minimum of 2 crits + 1 regular hit.

[Adanadan]

This dying rules are simply a no go. How is it that no matter how powerful a blow a player receives he can not die directly? If the NPC have to give 'coup de grace's to kill their enemies, the master has to actively decide, with no luck in between that one of its players has to die.

I don't know in other groups but this kind of decisions can be very difficult in my group, as really will be a matter of being too soft or too hard as a Master.

If no Coup de Grace are dealt, the deaths of players will be a matter of the past. And a game with no risk is not really much fun. I really think there was nothing wrong with the old system. Another solution in search of a problem, that leaves things much worse.

Edit: Grammar

[master_marshmallow]

Isn't there a massive damage rule? I thought so...

[gwynfrid]

Yup. Page 296, Massive Damage: You die instantly if you ever take damage equal to or greater than double your maximum Hit Points.

[Adanadan]

This means that a 90 HP player, with 5 remaining could take a 170 hit damage and not die? Even if it would die when getting a total result of -90 I am not sure it will ever come to happen.

Is this acceptable for you?

[Matthew Downie]

Yes.

Is the idea of a GM sending a monster who does 170HP in one attack against a PC with 90HP acceptable to you?

[Igor Horvat]

Right now the NPCs have to take "I pull out a hand saw and saw the head clean off" Action.

Or is that two actions?

Maybe 3 if you count taking out the hand saw?

Does that provoke AoO?

[gwynfrid]

Adanadan wrote:

This means that a 90 HP player, with 5 remaining could take a 170 hit damage and not die? Even if it would die when getting a total result of -90 I am not sure it will ever come to happen.

Is this acceptable for you?

That seems perfectly fine for a high level character to be extremely resilient. I don't think getting hit for 170 damage in one blow will happen often anyways. I suspect the rule will be invoked mostly when a character falls off a great height (170 damage = 340 feet fallen).

Igor Horvat wrote:

Right now the NPCs have to take "I pull out a hand saw and saw the head clean off" Action.

Or is that two actions?

Maybe 3 if you count taking out the hand saw?

Does that provoke AoO?

No AoO. Per update 1.2, the NPC just needs to strike and hit. One hit, dying increases by 1. One crit, dying increases by 2. Depending on rolls, the kill takes one to two rounds, or more in exceptional cases ie. if the NPC misses for some reason.

[Adanadan]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Yes.

Is the idea of a GM sending a monster who does 170HP in one attack against a PC with 90HP acceptable to you?

Precisely because I would never put such a monster in play, there is no way any of the players will ever die without a coup de grace, that only has sense in a zombie film like universe, where people return from the death.

[Matthew Downie]

Adanadan wrote:

Precisely because I would never put such a monster in play, there is no way any of the players will ever die without a coup de grace

Don't kill your players! Kill their characters is enough!

PCs can still die at 0HP without an enemy actively trying to finish them off. They just take a few rounds to do it.