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(Topic I came up with late in my previous thread which devolved from the main ideas of the initial thread)
So playing Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Pathfinder Tabletop, Dnd 5e, Dnd 4e, and 3.5, I think I have discovered my biggest issue with the Paladin other than no smite and retributive strike.
That is a loss of what we could call reliability, "old faithful", as it were.
In all of these edition the Paladins are usually smoked by the fighter in terms of raw build potential, but when a player chose a Paladin, they knew that they were ment to stick it through tough times and reliably do what they always have. Fighter fells to Will saves, wizards to focus and fortitude, rouges dodged, but Paladins stuck it out through thick and thin. Editions gave immunity to diseases, divince grace, lay on hands, smite evil all to emphasize no matter the enemy Paladins could be useful. That is lacking here for several core reasons.
This is best shown by comparing PF1 to PF2's allowance of abilities. Smite evil first was not tied to a trigger effect, and made sure that when faced with evil, Paladins could support the damage being done. Free, easy to use, reliable.
Second, Divine Grace. Charisma saves versus EVERYTHING, always active, NOT a reaction, reliable.
Third, Lay on Hands, SWIFT action on self, good heal, not encumbered by actions, reliable.
Forth, Regular feats such as Power Attack, gave plenty of options and versatility of build, reliable.
And finally Fear Immunity and Disease resistance and mercies built in seperately from feats.
All of these things added up to not make the class the best damage dealer per say in most groups, but the reliable frontline who could challenge evil and last through where others would falter, to make sure thier allies stayed alive. It was easier to be a defender in first edition with Attacks of Oppertunity, feats and healing even.
Does it need to be as strong as 1e? No, but design choices that don't interfere with eachother (limited reactions, no AoO default, lay on hands action economy and power) need to be looked at from 1e. Where there reliability was, where there purpose of design was.
Soulboundx wrote: No, but design choices that don't interfere with eachother (limited reactions, no AoO default, lay on hands action economy and power) need to be looked at from 1e. Where there reliability was, where there purpose of design was. Why do you think that? P2 obviously doesn't orient the paladins design on first edition and why would it have to?
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Honestly my biggest complaints about the Paladin are flavor-related. Like I do not like that Paladins are not compelled to protect the innocent (like explicitly the code says you don't have to) and I really dislike how we have to take a feat to be able to say literal devils, vampires, liches, and demons are not "legitimate authority."
It feels like in trying to appease the set of folks who want to pedantically trolley problem the Paladin into falling every tuesday, we've lost sight of how the Paladin is, above everything, a good guy/gal/other.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Honestly my biggest complaints about the Paladin are flavor-related. Like I do not like that Paladins are not compelled to protect the innocent (like explicitly the code says you don't have to) and I really dislike how we have to take a feat to be able to say literal devils, vampires, liches, and demons are not "legitimate authority." PF1 Paladin Code wrote: Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents Honestly, I think the new code is much clearer about everything without sacrificing any part of the old code. Nothing in the old code says that the paladin has to go out of their way to protect innocents either. And the old code also would require treating the ruler of an area as legitimate authority, regardless of whether it's a devil, lich, etc. Unless, of course, you argue that no evil creature can ever be legitimate authority, and thereby trigger Yet Another Paladin Argument...
Also, I think you're misreading the new code. Try reading the second bullet with this emphasis:
Quote: This tenet doesn’t force you to take action against possible harm to innocents or to sacrifice your life and potential to attempt to protect an innocent. In other words, if the head of the local thieves' guild tells you that he sent someone to burn down an orphanage, you don't fall because you chose to assume he was lying and not follow up on it.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Charisma to saving throws and some form of Smite feature is core to just about every and all paladins. Smite doesn't have to be a stat-boost like in PF1, but should be some means of providing the smack-down against the BBEG. The Cleric's smite feat comes to mind...
I don't mind Lay of Hands changing to be an action to use (as opposed to a swift); however, I do think it should be stronger to reflect the action economy cost and limited usage/day that doesn't scale like it does in PF1. Perhaps using d6's to start, and increasing to d8's with a feat.
I really wish to see more feat options for paladins. I personally think that Retributive Strike should be a feat, not a core class feature, as it feels more like something that benefits certain builds and play-styles rather than a character concept (unlike Lay on Hands or Smite).
Regarding the Paladin's Code, I think the code should be dependent based on your Deity. While all paladins in the playtest must be Lawful Good, Paizo has stated that PF2 would allow paladins of multiple alignments. If a player wants to play a paladin of a trickster deity, they should be allowed to be deceitful and lie (with some restrictions to prevent paladins from lying to do purposeful harm to innocence etc.). This idea that all paladins must follow a specific code is an old-fashioned idea that 5e rightfully changed with their Oath Tenants, allowing different paladins to feel distinct from one another.
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SnarkyChymist wrote: While all paladins in the playtest must be Lawful Good, Paizo has stated that PF2 would allow paladins of multiple alignments. Negative that isn't what Paizo said.
Paizo has never said that PF2 would allow Paladins of multiple alignments. What Paizo said, explicitly, was that it was considered and they might allow some in at some point in the future.
It is just as (if not moreso) likely that there will be other classes, not Paladins, with other abilities, that will act as Champions of other Alignments. There is no guarantee that you will ever get any other alignment of Paladin in PF2.
Hwalsh... you really need to stop correcting people on that and just let them dream. cause if you keep it up you WILL NOT be able to laugh and grin, point fingers and TYpe I told you so at the launch of pf2.0 .
still as I said elsewhere, it is not etched in stone yet.....( despite what everyone wants to think. Yes "THINK" cause we DON'T know Jack past the playtest, and reading too much into it and the various articles can lead into disappointment later)
but then you can go on and keep correcting everyone too...
I just dont want to hear about you feel like you are being attacked over it again.
SnarkyChymist wrote:
I don't mind Lay of Hands changing to be an action to use (as opposed to a swift); however, I do think it should be stronger to reflect the action economy cost and limited usage/day that doesn't scale like it does in PF1. Perhaps using d6's to start, and increasing to d8's with a feat.
There is such a feat at level 4. It allows you to use your pool to cast Heal for just 1 point, which scales and can be used for AoE healing/undead damaging.
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Steelfiredragon wrote: Hwalsh... you really need to stop correcting people on that and just let them dream. cause if you keep it up you WILL NOT be able to laugh and grin, point fingers and TYpe I told you so at the launch of pf2.0 .
still as I said elsewhere, it is not etched in stone yet.....( despite what everyone wants to think. Yes "THINK" cause we DON'T know Jack past the playtest, and reading too much into it and the various articles can lead into disappointment later)
but then you can go on and keep correcting everyone too...
I just dont want to hear about you feel like you are being attacked over it again.
I didn't feel like... I was.
Anyway, there is a reason to correct people. You cut down on hurt feelings after-the-fact if you quash rumors.
It is like a game of telephone:
Dev: "In the playtest Paladins are Lawful Good. We might consider other alignments in the future."
Poster: "They said Paladins are Lawful Good in the playtest! They'll be other alignments in the CRB!"
CRB: "Paladins must be Lawful Good."
Poster: "Paizo lied! Those lying liars! They said they're would be non LG Pallies in the CRB!"
We want to avoid that.
they will do that anyway and those feelings will be hurt anyway.
let 'em dream, let 'em get hurt,
I just wrestled through the rulebook (which was not easy or simple) and made a 4th level Playtest Paladin. I can say that I love him.
He's everything I want a Paladin to be.
He is Righteous warrior for Good.
Because he is human I took a second Level 1 class feat for the ancestral feat.
This gives him a strong Lay on Hands (2d6+3 + AC boost) /
Heal ability (2d8 +3)(5 spell points)
And a Smite Effect: I took Weapon Surge (+1 magic weapon
bonus for one strike) as a Domain power of Iomedae (based on same 5 spell
points)
He wears a breastplate and has a strong AC, especially with a shield
His saves are strong (stronger than most of the other characters) and feel very strong with divine grace.
He rides a horse (although there is some rules confusion about whether my Ride feat allows me to mount the horse without a handle animal check) which could have been a Steed Ally, but I bought a warhorse and went with Blade ally instead for the disrupting effect and weapon critical specialization.
I'm looking forward to using his Retributive Strike against any who would try to harm his horse.
Finally since Iomedae has intimidation as his deity skill, I took it too. With my 16 charisma and Demoralize at a Glance I can put the fear of righteous fury into evil doers. Perhaps They will even be inspired (coerced) into changing their evil ways.
This feels like a glorious Paladin to me, and I hope that he performs as well in the play test as I imagine he will!
Snickersnax wrote: I just wrestled through the rulebook (which was not easy or simple) and made a 4th level Playtest Paladin. I can say that I love him.
He's everything I want a Paladin to be.
He is Righteous warrior for Good.
Because he is human I took a second Level 1 class feat for the ancestral feat.
This gives him a strong Lay on Hands (2d6+3 + AC boost) /
Heal ability (2d8 +3)(5 spell points)
And a Smite Effect: I took Weapon Surge (+1 magic weapon
bonus for one strike) as a Domain power of Iomedae (based on same 5 spell
points)
He wears a breastplate and has a strong AC, especially with a shield
His saves are strong (stronger than most of the other characters) and feel very strong with divine grace.
He rides a horse (although there is some rules confusion about whether my Ride feat allows me to mount the horse without a handle animal check) which could have been a Steed Ally, but I bought a warhorse and went with Blade ally instead for the disrupting effect and weapon critical specialization.
I'm looking forward to using his Retributive Strike against any who would try to harm his horse.
Finally since Iomedae has intimidation as his deity skill, I took it too. With my 16 charisma and Demoralize at a Glance I can put the fear of righteous fury into evil doers. Perhaps They will even be inspired (coerced) into changing their evil ways.
This feels like a glorious Paladin to me, and I hope that he performs as well in the play test as I imagine he will!
Hope you have fun with it. The jury is out on being able to ret strike if your mount gets hit, because you need a special high level feat for that.
have fun with that.
though the holy avenger sucks now so when you play, dont think to much on it.....
My issue is the fact they're pushing alot of classes to be 1 stat focused, when that isn't the case.
Aside the level 9 smite damage bonus from Charisma, WHY would you take charisma on a paladin?
Divine grace no longer benefits from it.
Uses of things per day don't benefit from it.
It feels like the removal of this stat's benefit is keep the paladin from being a paladin instead of a yellow glowing fighter.
The mechanical identity of the class is long gone.
You do get spell points based on charisma, and feint is a charisma check and it's an important one to be ready to use for crit chance.
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HWalsh wrote:
Hope you have fun with it. The jury is out on being able to ret strike if your mount gets hit, because you need a special high level feat for that.
Well I was just going by the wording of retributive strike... Clearly there is an errata that needs to be made for Loyal Warhorse.
"Finally, you can make a Retributive Strike against anyone who hits your mount with a Strike, even if the attack was not a critical hit."
Doesn't match what Retributive strike does.
At least hopefully Loyal warhorse is the feat in error. Like you said jury is out.
Also update on the Paladin I outlined above post play:
The warhorse has been great, the mobility that it provides for movement is spectacular for outdoor adventuring. Really going to miss that in tight spaces.
Paladin saves are not as great as I thought. After closer comparison, my saves were the lowest in the group. With Divine Grace they could effectively be brought up to par with two of the other characters at the cost of a reaction. Paladins really need some love from their Divine Patrons here.
I had one crit with a weapon surge "smite" for 35 hit points that felt really satisfying. But overall I felt less effective in combat than the rogue, who did about half the party's damage.
Snickersnax wrote: I had one crit with a weapon surge "smite" for 35 hit points that felt really satisfying. But overall I felt less effective in combat than the rogue, who did about half the party's damage. Yeah PF2 rogues are INSANE they have massive skills and hit for higher damage on average than any front liners. Usually they have higher AC too. It is crazy.
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