This has been something I've been meaning to ask for awhile now. Ever since coming to the forums I usually see just complaints about... basically everything in the system. Martials are bad, CLW spam, Rogue is dead, Monk is dead, Everything is +some absuard number, etc etc. And with the coming of PF2 and the playtest, I keep seeing this more and more.
Now I know the forum go-ers are a small part of the community but it's just, how did Paizo keep PF1 going for so long if it's such a bad system to play with? Everyone complains about it but it still keeps getting played. It kept getting sold instead of dying out.
So just, why do you play it?
DnD 4 was a mess?
Your friends dragged you into it?
There really wasn't another game on market like it?
Other options were confusing?
Just why do/did people play this game if it's so broken and bad as a system?
And yes some of this is just to vent my frustration. But I am curious as to WHY people would keep playing this. Even if the idea is "The APs", couldn't you just transfer that to a system you like?
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Any system of sufficient complexity is going to have warts, and people post more often when they have something to complain about. Sure, we could all go play GURPS or something, but then we'd just complain about GURPS's crappy magic system or how tiny armored things are nigh invulnerable.
Fortunately, there are still plenty of threads with people talking about positive things--brainstorming adventure ideas, throwing homebrew stuff out there to be dissected, relating humorous ways their characters saved the day (or didn't). Regarding New 'n' Pathy!, much of the complaining about it is directly derived from the players' love of Pathfinder. Nevertheless, it's a system; it'll have its pros and cons, people will like or dislike it to varying degrees, and stories will continue to be created and told.
Edit: I never answered your question! -_-
I play Pathfinder because I like the system, the setting, and the overlap between the two. It feels like the essence of D&D to me--more so than any iteration of D&D that followed it. Plus, the community is alive and strong. : )
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I've never had a problem with Pathfinder. And remember more gripes are posted about anything than there are compliments. Look at any thread for any game and you'll see that is quite likely the gospel truth. That's just the way it is. I ignore the negative posts as much as I can. As to why I play, I'm the only GM for PF in my group, which I enjoy being. I get to be the chief "designer" of a cooperatively created world, one that goes back to 1991. I like to challenge my players as well as help provide the laughs.
We've been playing PF since it came out, having transferred to it from D&D 3.5. We skipped 4e and 5e because we simply don't want to change to a new set of rules and spend anymore money on systems. We've been playing for 30+ years and it's just not worth the money and effort to do so as far as we're concerned.
We won't be switching to PF2e, either. While I wish Paizo nothing but success in this new endeavor, we'll just keep playing this bloated, over complicated, and outdated game.. lol. We like it.
Organized Play Developer
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I started playing tabletop games with D&D 3E when I was in the Army, then moved to 4th edition when it came out right around the time I started college. I played 4E for several years, but eventually the group I was GMing for started getting very bored and disengaged with the system, so I decided to see if they'd enjoy 3.5 more and pulled out my old books. Something in 3.5 clicked, and I decided to do a campaign I'd been wanting to do for a long while, an underwater adventure with a bunch of aquatic races. When I was working on homebrewing up some handy rules and races for that campaign, I stumbled across a Pathfinder 3pp book called "Cerulean Seas" by Alluria Publishing. I was so impressed by the book I decided I'd be using it for my campaign, which spurred me to go check out the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. When I saw that it was largely compatible with 3.5 but had quite a few improvements, I was pretty excited and jumped right in.
Eventually conversion work I did to bring some of my favorite 3.5 subsystems over to Pathfinder got me freelance gigs for 3pp publishers like Dreamscarred Press, I wrote some stuff for Rogue Genius Games and a bunch of other great publishers, and now I work at Paizo as an organized play developer. I've got a new group who wasn't loving Pathfinder as much and was wanting to explore other systems like 5E and Cypher, so we did that for a bit, and now I've got a different group who's loving the playtest, so odds are good we'll be playing that for the foreseeable future and if it ends up having the same kind of OGL license as the current edition I might even get into 3pp design for that down the road since systems that have a lot of room to explore different concepts have a lot of appeal to me.
I like and play Pathfinder because it's the game that had the things I wanted at the time I wanted them and I met a lot of great people playing it. I'll continue to play the games that allow me to meet new and interesting people and tell the kinds of stories I want to tell with the people I want to help me tell them. It's actually been a pretty cool journey.
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Just why do/did people play this game if it's so broken and bad as a system?
And yes some of this is just to vent my frustration. But I am curious as to WHY people would keep playing this. Even if the idea is "The APs", couldn't you just transfer that to a system you like?
The bolded issue is amplified or negated based on the ability of the GM to manage their game. I haven't really had these issues because most of my gms are good at managing their game, managing gear, actually using the rules for magic item availability rather than just assuming people can gather whatever they want whenever, curating available spells and using leveled adventurer like antagonists rather than monsters as the BBEG types of campaigns.
The system is much like RIFTS. A problem if you open up everything regardless of in setting theme or restriction but a lot of fun if your gm has strong system mastery and a willingness to curate available options.
Fun
Frankly, I love the 3.X chassis. I like the way Pathfinder is set up. I like the complexity compared to 5e without the same-iness of 4e. I like that you can actually multiclass, instead of being 'born a fighter, always gonna be a fighter, gonna die a fighter'. I like that monsters use the same basic rules as PCs. I like the adventure paths, I like the way Golarion has a region for every style of campaign you could want to run. I like archetypes. I don't think "CLW spam" is a problem.
Now, I do think that martials do get the short end of the stick at higher levels, but I also think that is something that could easily be fixed without making an entirely new system that shares nothing but a name with the original.
The 3.X system has been evolving for 15+ years, and I feel it could (and should) keep doing so.
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Pathfinder was the first system I was introduced to and it has thus far been the best system for adapting to each of my campaigns. I understand the math behind it, and the balance, well enough to alter the game to suit my needs.
The game has plenty of flaws within it, and I can't imagine sticking to PFS for any length of time without getting bored. However, the game works wonderfully for the stories I wish to tell.
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Started on 3.5 was what got me into it. The involved character building process is what kept me around - I would have stuck with 3.5 because I like (ridiculous) theoretical optimization so much.
But, I also like actually playing the game. So the way Paizo cleaned up the skill system, removed dead levels, and encouraged single classing to make Pathfinder a lot friendlier to players encouraged me to switch from 3.5. Since I mostly DM, Pathfinder made sense for a more player-friendly version of my favorite edition.
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Adventure/AP/setting support. I was, and still am, willing to put up with the clunky, unbalanced, unwieldy and newbie-hostile platform of 3.5 so that I can run Paizo's excellent adventures in their stellar setting without having to convert stuff.
But with the new, shiny future on the horizon where I don't have to worry about one player rolling a mechanically stillborn Rogue/Druid/Sorcerer while another does a Conjurer Wizard with emergency force sphere and blood money? Count me in.
Actually, I don't play it anymore... no group to do so (the people I play with prefer D&D5 or rules light systems like Barbarians of Lemuria or AGE) and it was not fun, fun being my main motive to play.
but I must admit I did not struggle to avoid getting away from it, too complicated and the official scenarios required an unfun degree of optimisation and system mastery... plus, keeping up with the new material that kept coming out required an amount of attention and a budget I simply don't have available... I'd come back, and gladly if I found a group that allows/uses the psionic rules by Dreamscarred Press.
Adventure/AP/setting support. I was, and still am, willing to put up with the clunky, unbalanced, unwieldy and newbie-hostile platform of 3.5 so that I can run Paizo's excellent adventures in their stellar setting without having to convert stuff.
Paizo creativity is what brought me here, their staff involvement/communication with the customers is what got me to stay.
I have played a lot of systems, and none of them are perfect, but Pathfinder has a good chunk of what my group enjoys and needs.
I play Pathfinder for the richness of the Golarion game world, which is so condusive for complex storytelling. And it's the storylines, non-mechanical character development, and the improv acting that are what attracts me to table-top RPGs.
The system itself also scratches my nostalgia itch: It's still more-or-less AD&D, but with more PC options and better-codified rules that (mostly) makes more logical sense.
That said, I've been playing "rules-light" games more and more in recent years (e.g. Fate and Dungeon World), and I find their general lack of "crunch" to be very refreshing. Sometimes, it's nice to play a game where EVERYTHING you need to know about the rules is right there on the character sheet!
I started playing in 2014 at a local con when my d6 Star Wars living campaign was running modules I had already played. "Hmm, what else is there to do? Oh look, Pathfinder. Isn't that supposed to be D&D 3.6?"
Having played 3.0/3.5 it looked easy to sit down and just wing it, which it was. I've been playing ever since. It's enjoyable, so I keep playing in the local PFS groups.
As stated above, Pathfinder isn't any more broken than any other game with broad rules and 10+ year's of bloat.
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I only ever played 3.5; heard bad things about 4 and ran a campaign under 3.5 shortly after. After a bit a buddy who ran Pathfinder let me borrow his stuff and I was reasonably happy with it.
Slowly but surely over each time I've started a campaign I've added more house rules to make characters develop more naturally, parties develop more naturally, leveling to feel less like a Step Function (math) and more Continuous.
I find Pathfinder to be like a Bethesda game; It's all there and you can have some great experiences, but it plays best with a couple dozen mods.
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I'd come back, and gladly if I found a group that allows/uses the psionic rules by Dreamscarred Press.
I love DSP's Psionics and use/allow them in my setting.
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I first played an RPG at a convention. That game was D&D, no idea what edition. I found the character creation rather confusing and didn't see much in the way of customizing, although that might have been due to time constraints. The next day, I had a few spare hours before the next panel I wanted to go to so I went back to the game room. But the D&D tables were full. I was then directed to an open Pathfinder table.
It was one of those little intro-adventures that only take an hour. The GM was very funny and when I went home, I was curious about the game. I looked it up online and found this forum and the d20 site. I joined a game online and made my first custom character. And I loved it. Her build was a mess, but I loved the way that same build brought out a personality for her.
So I started making more characters, just because I liked doing it. All together, I have made 18 Pathfinder characters. Some of them need to be re-done, some don't. I haven't played all of them, and I probably never will, but I enjoy making them anyway.
Two of those characters are even my own homebrewed race. I took the third-party race Dragonkin as a base and did some alterations - giving them a Fly Speed, for example.
As for why I play the game, it's fun and I can understand the basic rules very easily. It's also funny to see my 2 foot 7 halfling hunter do more damage in a fight than the 7 foot barbarian. That is one character I definitely do NOT have to rebuild.
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I started looking to get into tabletop RPG's just as 4th edition was rolling out. I'd played the Neverwinter Nights series and followed the Order of the Stick webcomic so I had a certain degree of understanding of the 3E rules, but I'd never played tabletop games. What captivated me was the magic and the sheer range of possibilities it brought to the world. This is what ultimately lead me to Pathfinder, which stayed true to 3E's open-ended and world-changing magic.
Yes, there are balance and gameplay issues that follow from that magic (and I'm not just talking spells here). Yes, it can derail and even outright break entire campaigns. And yes, it can lead down strange paths. But for all the problems it may cause, I wouldn't want to give that up.
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As a player, I like making up characters and seeing how they'll get along with the others, fit into the setting, and what they'll get to do.
As a GM, I like planning out subtle, complex plots for the PCs to uncover, villains who can declare they're in the right and why, only for the PCs to point out just how wrong they are, and when the demands to surrender are refused, they get to have a big epic fight where everyone's scared of dying, but it might not even be permanent.
Either way, I like everyone getting together to make stuff up. A lot of the issues of the system can be ameliorated with everyone figuring out ways around them. The system's confusing for new players, so I've been helping out my new players so they can get at what they want without me planning out their feats or anything for them.
Why would anyone pick [This Class]? I follow the slogan of Reward Creative Solutions, I play NPCs who aren't just "stand in this room forever and fight the first intruder to the death," and I do have a couple of house rules that everyone likes.
Anyway, I've been trying to join in the playtest, and while I'll probably complain about some of the things in it, I'll also pitch ways to fix them or other ways to go about it, and there are already things I like about it.
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The D20 system by Monte Cook and Skip Williams is the best design system in roleplaying.
Pathfinder is the best edition of the D20 system.
Further, Paizo is an astoundingly friendly, open and customer service-based company.
Plus, the setting material and adventure modules are the best in the business.
Finally, the other systems out there are, um, not so good -- as far as for what I'm looking to play, at least.
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I think the Boards here provide us a great platform on which to voice our questions, concerns and complaints -- where we know the entire staff at the publishing company pays attention to us -- even responds to our specific issues on a daily, er, hourly basis!
Now, I suppose that means that if you stick to the same certain handful of Forums it'll seem like everything is a complaint and everyone has a problem. But let me tell ya, there's tons and tons OTHER Forums on the Boards where that's just Not the case.
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I play Pathfinder because it's absolutely the best and -- more importantly -- because it's PAIZO!
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I play Pathfinder because 3.5 ended, and 4E was (IMO, obviously) absolutely terrible. My group bought all the way in to the Pathfinder playtest, and we've been playing since. The system is a long way from perfect -- mainly because the 3.5 chassis is a long way from perfect -- but it's good, and it's amazingly detailed, with a fantastic default world.
I think 5E is a good system, and I think PF2E will end up being a good system, but we're just not going to start the game-book-buying treadmill again ... not when we're pretty happy with what we've got.
We're looking forward to having a "complete" game, and I'm personally planning to systematically work my way through the rules and build "PathWilder" with a comprehensive set of house rules.
Like the mentions above, I also think Paizo is a good company, run by significantly better than average people. That's not a DECIDING factor -- I still buy Northern TP! -- but it's nice to know I've been a completionist supporter of the company for these several years.
Echoing what W E Ray said. The d20 system has been the best thing to hit my and my group's gaming world ever. Sure it's flawed, but there is no game out there that isn't. But Monte Cook and Skip Williams really nailed it.
And to Jeff Wilder: Northern TP rocks!
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Sure forum bias is rife with hate for the system but that's the loud minority. Many love the system and some just want to see improvement.
I play because its fun. That's what any form of play is supposed to be for is it not? The APs were certainly the selling point of Pathfinder for me. I remember hearing tales of "Ragnar and his big-ass sword" in my older brother's Kingmaker campaign. My brother would tell me about his sessions and it sounded like the greatest thing ever. I've never tried other systems outside of Mutants and Masterminds so Pathfinder is my outlet for roleplaying and great story telling with combat to match. The options for character creation are practically limitless and I find great pleasure in creating "against the grain" characters in terms of expectations and stereotypes. I don't know if other systems can make offer the same.
I have Mutants and Masterminds 3e but no on in my group wants to play it, so we play the DC Heroes system (2d10) instead.
I roll, therefor I play.
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Adventure/AP/setting support. I was, and still am, willing to put up with the clunky, unbalanced, unwieldy and newbie-hostile platform of 3.5 so that I can run Paizo's excellent adventures in their stellar setting without having to convert stuff.Paizo creativity is what brought me here, their staff involvement/communication with the customers is what got me to stay.
I have played a lot of systems, and none of them are perfect, but Pathfinder has a good chunk of what my group enjoys and needs.
Similar to these. I like the adventures, and I like/respect/trust the people behind them.
Now, I don't play them as-written, necessarily -- I've been playing various forms of D&D since the late '80s, so I've weathered a few major game changes over time and learned to pick and choose what I like. On the rules side, PF was an improvement on 3.x, but more crunchy/complex than much of my gaming group generally likes; on the setting side, Golarion has never really grabbed me.
So I've done things like playing Pathfinder modules with 5e rules in the (AD&D2e version of) Forgotten Realms.