Do you have to roll on both attacks? Can you quote from the book to back up your answer?
I'm asking because a friend of mine is really skeptical. He believes that Power Attack is way better than Double slice because you have to roll for both attacks, meaning in the long run, Power Attack does more damage.
Do you have to roll on both attacks? Can you quote from the book to back up your answer?
I'm asking because a friend of mine is really skeptical. He believes that Power Attack is way better than Double slice because you have to roll for both attacks, meaning in the long run, Power Attack does more damage.
Make one Strike (see page 308) with each of your two melee weapons, each at your current multiple attack penalty. The second Strike takes a –2 circumstance penalty if it’s made with a weapon that doesn’t have the agile trait (see page 182). If both attacks hit, combine the attacks’ damage, and then add any other applicable enhancements from both weapons. For purposes of resistances and weaknesses, this is considered a single Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty (see page 305)
As far as myself and most people seem to be reading it you make a strike with each, that then gets treated as a single strike if both hit for the purposes of resistance and weakness only. Note the bolded area. As this has to be called out, it implies that you are making two separate Strikes, so two rolls.
However, this can actually be an advantage over power attack in the long run, because it's less swingy. Sometimes actual damage matters less than the consistency of damage.
Quick maths as follows, ignoring crits for a second:
So in our example, power attack has a 50% chance of hitting and a 50% chance of missing. Double slice has a 25% chance of hitting with both, a 50% chance of hitting with only one (making it a 75% chance of hitting in general), and a 25% chance of missing with both.
This principle applies to critical hits as well. So double slice will crit more often, but critical hits will likely be smaller in damage on average (early game. Late game I'd expect runes to cause double slice to pull ahead e.g. if you ring of doubling a high level flame rune onto both). This isn't a problem if you're playing a debuff Fighter, as a large number of weapon groups can fill a powerful support role by critting and using their weapon specialisation effect (e.g. knives cause bleed and brawling group weapons can slow a target).
Also note that dual weapons can add the strength modifier of the fighter twice, as they are two attacks.
Power attack has the early game advantage of working well with the strongest weapons and giving easy access to a very large amount of damage, but double slice puts the probability of hitting or debilitating on your side, which can be a considerable advantage.
Also, somebody let me know if this isn't a fair late game comparison or if I've forgotten about damage enhancing fighter powers:
So overall in this comparison it looks like a power attacker pulls ahead in a slugfest. Note however that this only happens if both sides are following up their initial two actions with more attacks, otherwise the double slicer pulls ahead. Also, keep in mind that a rogue can multiclass to gain the benefits of this, putting her at a bonus 4d6 (14) damage per hit against a flat-footed target. A light pick on a crit fisher rogue-fighter might be able to pull ahead in damage at a guess.
TL;DR Power attackers can generally inflict a lot of damage (though I suspect there are ways to shenanigan out more on a double slicer), but double slice is more likely to hit and crit with those two actions. Because a double slicer is more likely to hit, but less likely to hit at full power, they might prove more useful against high AC targets and power attackers against low AC targets.
Edit: I made an error -I treated the third attack as only taking one penalty, when it takes two. So double slice pulls ahead in overall damage and crit utility.
Thank you. If Double slice and the sawtooth sabers work together as well as it sounds like, that's potential for a lot of damage.
Thank you. If Double slice and the sawtooth sabers work together as well as it sounds like, that's potential for a lot of damage.
No problem. Note that sawtooth sabres are exotic, but light picks for instance are merely martial. Still, IIRC it isn't too hard to pick up an exotic weapon.
A light pick seems like it will be good late game, because while it only does d4, on a crit it does d8 and adds an extra d8, and then (if you have weapon spec unlocked) it does one bonus damage per damage die. Because a rogue-fighter wants to catch people flat footed to sneak attack, you might be hitting with a higher chance to crit against lower AC enemies if you are one. Greater Corrosive could come in handy here (as destroyed armour might up the crit chance further). Even if you're just a fighter, if you manage to luck into a keen rune, these might be a good bet (though it might still only be an approx 19% crit chance per double slice). Dogslicer might be a good choice for goblins thanks to backstabber, especially again for a rogue-fighter.
I'm actually going Paladin.
I'm actually going Paladin.
I meant in a more general sense, but fair.
Paladins are best for sword and board IIRC, but if you want to power attack a lance might be fun and thematic (don't have my thing open rn so I can't confirm the charge effect works with it).Alternatively, as has been noted by PossibleCabbage elsewhere, you seem to be able to combo deific weapon and deadly simplicity on a paladin-cleric of Irori, which would give you a d8 nonlethal agile finesse punch.
Handwraps of mighty fists can scale them up like weapons, and I think it might be possible to wield something else in the same hand (will need to check though, and if it prevents shields).
On top of that, there are some possible funny interactions if you stick an ally spirit inside your fist, depending on the exact wording.
I wasn't going for shield as I'm not going tanky (another member of our party is doing that). I was thinking bastard sword and only wielding it one handed when I want to cast LoH.
Double Slice has more tactical uses, and isn't an [Open] feat meaning it can be used on your secondary attacks.
Power Attack offers no such benefits.
Double Slice when combined with Hunter's Target or Agile Grace then creates 'full rounds' where one can have a turn like this:
One-handed weapon, agile weapon
[A] Strike (MAP 0) [A\\] Double Slice (MAP-5/-5)
two agile weapons
[A] Strike (MAP 0) [A\\] Double Slice (MAP-4/-4)
This is in addition to being able to move/buff and then take two primary attacks.
As you proceed in levels, Power Attack's distribution spread gets worse and worse, creating a larger bell curve within which you will see more varied results. Given the lower range of possibilities and higher minimum values, and the larger range of tactical choices that Double Slice affords you, it will always perform better. Especially when it gives your tertiary attack something like +20% chance to hit/crit without compromising any of the other attacks.
That is not to say that Double Slice is overpowered, far from it. It is the standard by which all other combat styles should be compared and brought up to, it is a good feat.
Double Slice seems good, but I'm going to go with Power Attack this build, as I don't feel like going into Fighter and Cleric to maximize damage and still be able to cast LoH. Will keep Double slice in mind when I decide to try a fighter.
He's still saying that you should only get strength bonus once. He says everyone else is cheating and he's going to play by what the rulebook says.
Who is saying this? He is wrong.
Yeah. He finally admitted he was wrong on that.
question I have is double slice way I am reading you make both attacks at current multi attack penalty so say you its your 1st set of attacks as long as offhand agile my bonus is +10 normal so I make my rapier/shortsword attacks at +10/+10 my last attack with shortsword is(-8) so is at +2. my dm is interpreting the feat as only for dr so r/s/s +10/+6/+2 anyone have ruling on this. if I was using 2 rapiers would be +10/+8+/+0 any feedback would be ausome
I don't know why you posted in this thread and started a new one. But you got your answer over there.
As for it being overpowered, it isn't. The damage is actually 1.5 damage less than swinging a d12 weapon twice (at 0 and -5).