I have tha absolute worst luck with Fort saves. Probably my fault for being a melee Envoy with no Con, but the difference of 2 or 3 points in Fort save would not help the rolls I tend to get.
Some Dead Suns 1/2 spoilers.
So I've had a brush with both disease and poison. The disease meant -2-3 to everything, the poison is Dex so it's meaning no Dex to AC, plus huge penalties to everything Dex based.
Pretty substantial hits, made worse from the disease being two in game days for the penalties to go away, and the poison beong a whopping four days. That is not downtime that parties can afford, especially during an AP. It's livable though, you can still play even with like 12 KAC or a -3 to damage.
Had I had even one or two more failures though, then it gets bad. 2 more fails on that disease (which by the way is not hard. You actually take a penalty to saves just for getting a disease, so get unlucky with the first roll, and the DC essentially gets higher) and you're bedridden. That is two days minimum of a character that cannot be played. 2 more fails on that poison of which I had a 50% failure chance and congrats, you're immobile and helpless for at least a day. Again, a day parties can't always afford (followed by two days per additional stage for the poison to get out of your system, with penalties lessening all the way down).
So how would tables deal with this situation? You can't have one player just unable to play for multiple encounters, that would suck.
Our table I've made the joke that anything happens to the Icon Envoy, her manager is going to come knocking (Cororate Agent Solarian so can fill the same Starship and combat roll), but that's essentially running two characters. Having a backup because "the main is sick", or the equivalent of interchangeable characters A) seems a bit cheese and B) wouldn't fit all tables.
Tdlr: Poison and Disease rules are broken atm, houserule those rather than swapping character.
I know this is not the direction you were looking at, but my suggestion would be to have your table revisit poison/disease rules and heavily Houserule how they are handled. Among other things the speed of healing so your character can be back in action faster.
In the current state of the rules, they are extremely debilitating and can really suck the fun and rhythm out of the game (there have been a few threads on them here these past weeks). Plus the options to heal them at low level are close to non-existent. The speed at which tiers of infection are lost should be sped up and more options for removing them are needed.
In our case we have a player (toon is a Technomancer) with maxed Medicine, all kinds of medicinal items on her and the "Medical Expert" Feat. When our Envoy got poisoned by the same critters that got you in the jungle (and then got poisoned again later by a much worse poisonous creature) the DM and her were looking everywhere in the rules for options to heal that poison and not have us need to spend 24 hours until the Envoy could move and 72 hours before he would not be utterly useless anymore. They found nothing. I think in the end they agreed that the "Medical Expert" Feat gave her access to an action to treat poison (DC 20) that uses a dose of Antitoxin and immediately removes a tier of poison and that is usable once per day per patient (or something like that). Not saying it's the best solution, but RAW is pretty awful for low levels as is.
Hope this helps a bit!
We had the case of your first example. The character, a sharpshooter soldier, was unable to hit that much. So he went to the front line, and used full defense a lot, working as a deterrant in choking points and as a walking cover for team mates. It could be played through, but it was not the funniest experience for him.
the second one (helpless character) haven't happened to us yet, but yes, it sounds it's not a good thing.
Non magic healing isn't very good. That's a common problem in all rpgs with healing magic.
Non magic healing isn't very good. That's a common problem in all rpgs with healing magic.
The problem is even the magic healing isn't that good. Nor are the items to deal with it.
Remove Affliction is a third level spell, thus barred off until seventh character level. Prior to that, remove condition doesn't really apply to disease or poison. In poison's case specifically as well, even if you save, thus starting recovery, if you get poisoned again on the same track, it picks up where it left off.
Items like Antitoxin only apply to making saves, so you need to use them pre-emptively, and even the skill use for Long Term Care in Medicine requires a medical lab/bay and a DC 30 check you can't take 20 on (plus basically takes a day).
Our GM actually asked me if there was any way to deal with the poison, since story-wise where we are it's impossible to replace the character organically. Early levels though, there really aren't available options. If you have a low Fort save (mine is on par with 2 other members of the party at +1, so most of the issue is my fault putting myself in danger) then these are options with a chance to outright kill you, or if not severely debilitate you past their first three stages.
I don't feel that the disease and poison rules are broken. Diseases and poisons are now finally a threat vs. the often-joke they were in PF1.
Sometimes bad rolls will be unavoidable, but in my games where poison and disease struck, they added narrative tension and the players actually enjoyed the increased stakes. Yes, they had to adjust tactics to compensate - a front-line fighter became fire support, for example, even if he didn't hit very often.
That said, unless a party of adventurers is foolish enough to have no characters with ranks in Medicine and doesn't bother to purchase even a basic medkit, a successful Treat Disease gives a +4 to the afflicted's next save. If at least one other PC has training in Medicine, they can Aid Another to try and help ensure that Treat Disease DC is reached. Gaining that +4 Treat Disease bonus should be within reach of most level-appropriate threats.
Also, Great Fortitude is not a throwaway feat. It may not be sexy but if you're building a Con-weak character and have low Fort saves, it's not the game's fault if you aren't looking at this feat. Starfinder is built to have more well-rounded characters than PF1. "Niche protection" is much less of a thing in Starfinder.
I agree, sometimes it sucks when a character can't catch a break. But I'd view it more as a feature than a flaw if a situation forces choices between retreat and rest or press on and press your luck. It's another angle on the "resource management"/risk-vs-reward aspects of the game. Some adventures aren't time-bound but some definitely are. In my experience the larger problem is when the group won't adjust and leave the afflicted PC in the "sorry you're screwed but no my problem". However, this often leads to the now-underpowered party getting kicked in the face and everybody needing to rest anyway...
But let's face it, in Starfinder you will frequently be operating "out in the wild" where the wild can be light years from civilization rather than a few miles of forest to the next town. Plan, prepare, and adjust tactics accordingly.
I agree, sometimes it sucks when a character can't catch a break. But I'd view it more as a feature than a flaw if a situation forces choices between retreat and rest or press on and press your luck. It's another angle on the "resource management"/risk-vs-reward aspects of the game. Some adventures aren't time-bound but some definitely are. In my experience the larger problem is when the group won't adjust and leave the afflicted PC in the "sorry you're screwed but no my problem". However, this often leads to the now-underpowered party getting kicked in the face and everybody needing to rest anyway...
I certainly agree with you. I view it as a feature and love the challenge of dealing with my mistakes.
My question is less so whether disease and poison are "broken" as what to do if a player winds up through no fault of their own, actually unable to play.
Statistically as a level 3 character I've had 3 chances for Great Fortitude (Human bonus feat). Instead I have Skill Focus: Intimidate, Veiled Threat, and Improved Unarmed Strike, all of which are integral to the character I'm playing.
Let's math a little though, the DC of that poison was 11. At +1 which is just slightly above minimum (no con penalty) I've got a 45% success chance since you win on a tie. From there, you roll every round for 6 rounds.
While this was happening, our Operative without a med kit and eho's a sniper was too far away, and we were in combat. Our Technomancer needed significant healing, so that Standard action from our Mystic was out of the question, even to pull an Antitoxin.
So 45% without much chance for adjustment. If that first is a fail, 45% chance again to progress. The chance of getting to a hard-debilitating level is 45% of 45% of 45% of 45%. So rounded about 4%, a little less than the odds of rolling a natural 1.
Now remember my odds are on par with our Operative and our Technomancer, so we are the Fort-weak.
That 4% chance that stems from a single fail is 4 rounds, though is expedited from repeated exposure. So I'm going to label it as the average, since yes you can bump up your odds, but your enemies can lower it and speed it up. If that 4% decides it doesn't like you, your character enters a state where they cannot be played. Immobilized, and Helpless for 1 day.
From that point, is where my question falls. If a player ends up in that 4% seat, where they do not have a playable character, but they are not dead, what would you do as a table?
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I think the penalties aren't that bad. You can push though them. The part of the helpless characters is more troublesome.
In my table, I'd let the decisions to the players. The logic solution would be to do what the characters would do in a real situation like that. They have to decide if they stay there one day, and try to rest and take care of their team mate (or even go back and look for medical care), or leave their friend behind and finish the mission. Hopefully, with an in-game debate about morality and repercusion of your own acts. From a roleplaying point of view, it's an oportunity more than a hindrance, but yes, it sucks for the *player* of said character not being able to play for a while.
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From that point, is where my question falls. If a player ends up in that 4% seat, where they do not have a playable character, but they are not dead, what would you do as a table?
Thanks for the additional info. I guess I'd look at it like this:
PLAYERS' PERSPECTIVE
Understanding that retreat and rest isn't always an option, that should be Objective #1, if possible. If not, tactics should be varied to a more defensive posture, fighting withdrawal, leveraging terrain, seeking any advantage they can find. If the healthy PCs don't vary what they're doing beyond saying "dang, that's tough" they aren't helping the team. The afflicted PC should be shifting to straight up support - Aid Another, covering fire, harrying fire, etc. Even straight up ranged attacks have a chance for a critical.
GAMEMASTER'S PERSPECTIVE
If a player is having nothing but bad rolls and is in such a situation through no fault of their own and retreat and rest isn't an option, inserting antitoxin, healing serums, and any other appropriate healing item into an encounter area or among fallen enemy loot seems almost necessary to help keep all players engaged and the story moving forward. If the dire straits repeat, I wouldn't keep spamming this solution but if used for judicious application of "keep them in the fight", I would be fine with it.
The GM can also choose to lower the DC necessary to beat the affliction. But if players know the original DC, be prepared to answer questions and have to walk it back somewhere down the line (see below).
Additionally, if there are any NPCs with the group, giving temporary control to an affected PC is a viable short-term solution. It's not a preferred one for the player but it's a better alternative than being incapacitated.
Honestly, though, I'm not seeing how this is all that different than a character being knocked unconscious or killed. A PC that is sluggish, sickened, stiffened, impaired, nauseated, etc. can still do stuff. Unconscious or dead seems much more problematic to me.
If you're looking for a house-rule to dismiss, suspend, or handwave the problem away, however, I can't help you. Any of those options effectively introduces an exception or "cheat code". As a player, I wouldn't like it as it cheapens the game experience. If it goes my buddy's way today but my character doesn't get the same "consideration" in the future, I'd be pissed. BUT, if it happens all the time, NOTHING is a challenge.
As a GM, I wouldn't allow the exception because once you introduce it for this scenario, you've introduced precedent for a player to argue a similar case for ANY negative condition, and that isn't my idea of fun. When I'm GMing, I don't want PC death or debilitation but if PC success is guaranteed and the outcome predetermined, I start wondering why I'm running a game vs. writing a novel...
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In my game I made players make rolls and encounter people that would make it very clear disease and poison is common within Castrovels jungles, so they could plan for such eventualities.
I know it’s frustrating as a player, but a good DM/GM should be able to make the circumstances you are in into a plot itself. Maybe have the enemies start coming down with it too, and signs that they sought a natural cure that you could pursue too. Would slow both parties down.
These modifiers need to remain a threat, and have a significant effect on the people afflicted. Part of traveling in space is encountering the unknown and the threats there in. Maybe have your character become overly nervous of such things and stick up on serums for every disease and poison out there.
My Vesk engineer got Radiaion poison and sickness in similar circumstances and I worked in a new social encounter which could result in cure for the right price. Due to everything his friends had to sacrifice for him, he now spends his time in the engi bay researching protections from radiation and seeking to never be a burden on his group again.
Failure doesn’t need to be the end of a story, but can be the beginning of a new one.
From that point, is where my question falls. If a player ends up in that 4% seat, where they do not have a playable character, but they are not dead, what would you do as a table?Honestly, though, I'm not seeing how this is all that different than a character being knocked unconscious or killed. A PC that is sluggish, sickened, stiffened, impaired, nauseated, etc. can still do stuff. Unconscious or dead seems much more problematic to me.
Agree with all your points. That highlighted bit is what I'm getting at. Each poison and the disease track hits a stage that does the equivalent of unconscious them.
Disease's final three stages are as follows:
"Bedridden
The victim is awake and can converse, but she can’t stand on her own or take any other actions or reactions.
Comatose
The victim is unconscious and feverish, and can’t be woken.
Dead
The victim is dead, and her corpse may still be contagious."
Out of seven stages.
For poisons of their five stages the last two are one of the following and Dead:
"Immobile
The victim is helpless and can take only purely mental actions.
Unconscious
The victim is unconscious and can’t be woken by any means.
Comatose
The victim can’t process thoughts and can’t be woken.
Catatonic
The victim loses agency and can’t interact with anything.
If a player gets those 4 failed saves, that 4% I roughly mentioned for the low Fort character. How do you handle it? They are Unconscious, but without the easy solution of spending a resolve or getting magical healing. They are stuck for X healing days. Antitoxin is preventative, even the medical aid for Disease is +4 for the save but as my team learned, the Sickened condition caused by disease essentially reduces that to just a +2. A Con poison would have this same effect of making your save worse.
Not dead, but not playable (because unconscious for x days). A dead player they make up a new character, but one stuck in the limbo between death and not is the problem I'm trying to address. My character is not there yet, but it would have been very easy to get there.
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Once you hit the Bedridden/Immobile stages you pretty much might as well be dead, the amount of successful saves you need to make in a row in order to not just keep spiraling to death is enough that you might as well just roll up a new character.
Poison and Disease in Starfinder are not a joke and will kill you more often than not, I killed 3 PCs at Gen Con with a disease in an SFS scenario. Its more than I've killed in 78 games of SFS before Gen Con.
An update on this after last night's session. My Envoy is still poisoned, and it sucks, but one stage is recovered after two days so the road to recovery while annoyingly long, is underway.
However:
So our Mechanic is a very different case from me. Where I have that whopping +1 Fort, as a Mechanic he starts at a base +3 with an extra +2 from being an Android, so +5. The DC on this disease he caught is 13, so he had to roll an 8, meaning only 35% fail chance. Better than my odds on a weaker poison. He failed.
So Latent phase (unlike my prior disease which skipped it like a dick) doesn't do much. Our Mystic patched him up for a +4 to the save, reducing the fail chance to 15%, however there's another thing to consider. Since you need 2 consecutive successes thay means his success rate isn't the missing 85%, it's actually about 72%. Still good, unfortunately our Mechanic failed the first save.
This is where things get more nasty. Sickened and Fatigued from the Weakened state reduce his saves by 2, along with a bunch of other things. I dealt with this when I had my disease, it's not the best but it's liveable. The downside is that -2 hit makes his unassisted fail rate 45% (same as mine was on that poison) and assisted it's 25%, with the need for 2 successes in a row making success odds about 56%. Since you can only make 1 save per day with no way to speed this up that means 2 days minimum in this state. Again liveable if not ideal.
He failed again, gaining the Impaired state which ups Fatigued to Exhausted and has the added penalty that doing any standard or full action requires a DC 13 Fort Save (based on the disease DC) or you not only lose that action but become Nauseated for 1 minute. 1 minute of Nauseated is 10 rounds of literally having only a single move action a turn. This Fort save, while part of the disease, is not a save vs disease so as far as I can tell the Android benefit might not apply. Either way, with the Sickened penalty we're looking at 45-55% chance to loose not only the action you're doing but every action for the next 10 rounds. This is... Bad. Playable, especially since he's a drone Mechanic so the drone can still act, but bad. Again, to day minimum to get out of this phase at 56% chance of success, 25% failure chance, but to get back to Latent, you're looking at 4 days, and only a 31% chance.
That's where we left off last night. 25% chance next day of moving up to Debilitated and start taking damage on every Standard action, thus also making it a 6 day recovery with only a 17% chance of getting back to Latent. At this point, the odds of getting worse are stupid better than getting better.
The phase after that is Bedridden, and congrats 2 days minimum of no character.
At that point, Shadius seems to have put it right. With poisons at least once you get that save, it's just X days to wait out the symptoms and get better. With disease, a 10% chance (on a decent Fort character mind you, with the best aid you can offer) of making 8 consecutive saves, with each failure adding 2 back to the pile and making you worse, you're best to have a new character. Or at least a temp replacement like I have set up with my Envoy so that at least you have someone to play while you're stuck for 1 day/save. Now our Mechanic is technically lucky-
-he got a disease that won't kill him. I almost want to ask if you can opt to not make a save, just cause if her gets to Bedridden it would actually be better for him to just go to Comatose. Then it'll be one day for the disease to finish up and he's back. As it stands though, just like me, he's 2 failed saves from not being able to play, and his current state is borderline unplayable with that 45% chance to have no actions but moving. He already made the comment of asking what he should play next cause his character is pretty much useless for the rest of this adventure regardless of save outcome.