Magic Jar and Spirit Jars

[Seems]

Whoo boy, this gets confusing! A couple of questions about Magic Jar and Spirit Jars.

1. Magic Jar reads, "If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities."

Does this mean a spellcaster can use their spells while in the host's body?

2. Do Spirit Jars essentially allow a permanent Magic Jar? "Spirit jars are permanently affected by magic jar, and can potentially be kept trapped within forever. A caster can only move his soul between bodies while his casting of magic jar is in effect. If his spell expires while he is within a Spirit jar, his soul and those in the other jars are trapped. "

So if the Magic Jar spell ends while the spellcaster is in the host's body, does the spellcaster's soul return to her own body while the host's soul remains trapped in the Spirit Jar? If I understand it correctly, this would allow the spellcaster to renew the Magic Jar spell on the host's body ad infinitum and essentially use it permanently?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

[Ryze Kuja]

TLDR: Spirit Jars allow you to use the Magic Jar spell to juggle hosts between four bodies: your own body, and three others.

Magic Jar wrote:

By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body. The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty. To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it. When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead.

While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)

You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.

Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature’s soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.

If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can’t choose to activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature’s spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.

As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.

If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host’s location.

Spirit Jars wrote:

Jars, Spirit

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Source Pathfinder #27

Aura moderate necromancy; CL 7th; Slot none; Price 26,250 gp; Weight 2 lbs. a piece

DESCRIPTION

Typically found in sets of three, these clay jars are decorated with the heads of animals and monsters. Though they once likely contained the preserved viscera of ancient scholars, nobles, and priests, the jars now hold little more than dust. Their true value lies in the benefits they provide spellcasters seeking to transpose their souls via the spell magic jar. Spirit jars serve as focus items for the spell magic jar, forgoing the spell’s need for another focus. All three jars function in this way, allowing a caster to move his soul or that of a nearby target into any one of the three jars, or his own soul between jars and bodies as he pleases. The jars do not allow him to shuffle souls other than his own into different bodies, though he can shift souls between jars.

Spirit jars are permanently affected by magic jar, and can potentially be kept trapped within forever. A caster can only move his soul between bodies while his casting of magic jar is in effect. If his spell expires while he is within a Spirit jar, his soul and those in the other jars are trapped. A soul within a Spirit jar can be freed by opening the jar, allowing the spirit within to try to swap souls with that of the jar’s holder as per the spell magic jar (a DC 17 Will save to resist), or return to its body if it is within range. Alternatively, casting magic jar on an Spirit jar containing a spirit, rather than an individual creature, allows that spirit to swap bodies as if it were the target of the spell. Should a spirit within a Spirit jar no longer have a body or be outside its jar when its magic jar spell ends, it returns to one of the empty Spirit jars if one is in range, or dies if one is not.

Question 1: Yes, a spellcaster can use their spells while within the host's body. However, if the Host has any spells or spell like abilities, these are not available. You retain any of your own mental abilities while in the host's body.

Question 2: No they do not allow a permanent Magic Jar, but they also kinda do. It's complicated. So essentially what this allows you to do is trap up to 3 souls inside the Spirit Jars indefintely, and their bodies would be lifeless while trapped. When you cast Magic Jar these Spirit Jars serve as the "gem" or "capsule" that entraps the soul, your own body becomes lifeless and you can now enter or even move through these three bodies or the three jars, as well as your own body, as you see fit until your Magic Jar effect ends. Whichever body you occupy when your Magic Jar spell ends becomes lifeless and your spirit returns to your body, but, if you end up in one of the Spirit Jars when your Magic Jar effect ends, then you're trapped until someone opens the jar. So, to answer your question, you can trap 3 souls indefinitely. But if you want to move through various bodies, then you have to cast the Magic Jar spell. Don't get caught with your pants down when you do this though, because you COULD end up with your spirit stuck in a Spirit Jar when your Magic Jar spell ends, then you're stuck. This can really only happen if all 4 of your bodies are outside of the spell's range while your own spirit is within a Spirit Jar. Of course, if you have a minion or an ally nearby, this is less of a problem because they can just open the jar for you while you're next to one of these 4 bodies.

Seems wrote:

So if the Magic Jar spell ends while the spellcaster is in the host's body, does the spellcaster's soul return to her own body while the host's soul remains trapped in the Spirit Jar?

If the Magic Jar spell ends while you, the spellcaster, are in the host's body, then you're returned to your own body and your host's body becomes lifeless again (because their own soul is permanently trapped in one of the Spirit Jars) until your next casting of Magic Jar.

[Ryze Kuja]

And to clarify a bit further, you do not want to be caught outside of the spell's range when your host dies or when the spell expires. You will die. You'll need a generous DM and a couple of wish spells to make it right again.

[Pizza Lord]

Seems wrote:

1. ...
Does this mean a spellcaster can use their spells while in the host's body?

As Ryze Kuja said, yes. You can cast your spells in the host body provided the host body can speak if the spell is verbal, has hands to make any somatic components, and (sometimes easily forgotten) has a spell component pouch for necessary materials.

[VRMH]

The nice thing about these Jars is that it allows you to give (willing) others a new body. Their existence means the party's antagonist might show up with a completely new physique, even without being a caster.

[Seems]

VRMH wrote:

The nice thing about these Jars is that it allows you to give (willing) others a new body. Their existence means the party's antagonist might show up with a completely new physique, even without being a caster.

This is essentially what I was hoping to achieve with Rolth Lamm from CotCT, by having him possess Pilts Swastel, the "Emperor" of Old Korvosa. I was imagining that with the use of 2 Magic Jars spells per day he could keep Swilts trapped in a Spirit Jar and use his body for most of the day, returning to his own body at night. Is this how it would work?

[Azothath]

VRMH wrote:

The nice thing about these Jars is that it allows you to give (willing) others a new body. Their existence means the party's antagonist might show up with a completely new physique, even without being a caster.

incorrect as you imply that it is a permanent body swap effected by a non-caster.

"The jars do not allow him(the caster) to shuffle souls other than his own into different bodies, though he can shift souls between jars." Even Magic jar does not allow shuffling of other souls. There are ways around it via (very expensive) magic items.
In the case of a victim opening a jar with a trapped spirit, the spirit can take over the body BUT as Magic Jar is referenced the spell has a duration and the jar's effective level(7) would set that duration. Thus it is not permanent.

It is possible to create 3 soulless bodies (assuming that the caster returns to his body) that for game purposes are dead bodies (objects). The 3 spirits are left in the jar but easily disposed of (200 ft of string on the lid). Probably they'd be best to keep around and interrogated or trade to a nighthag. Alas, the soulless body falls into GM territory as to what happens and the simple thing is that they die (as per Magic Jar and the mage failing to return to his body when the spell expires).

Magic Jar wrote:

... If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host’s location.

[Azothath]

Seems wrote:

... Rolth Lamm from CotCT, by having him possess Pilts Swastel, the "Emperor" of Old Korvosa. I was imagining that with the use of 2 Magic Jars spells per day he could keep Swilts(Pilts?) trapped in a Spirit Jar and use his body for most of the day, returning to his own body at night. Is this how it would work?

Possibly. The target must fail the save versus Magic Jar or it is immune to that casting. "Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again."

I'd suggest Mind Fog or something that lowers Will saves BEFORE casting Magic Jar. I'd also have a low Will Save backup in a cage or unconscious in case the target makes the save. You could possess the ruler's senchal and drug the ruler as a backup.
Magic Jar is also very susceptible to Protection from Evil, a first level spell.

[Seems]

Azothath wrote:

Possibly. The target must fail the save versus Magic Jar or it is immune to that casting. "Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again."

I'd suggest Mind Fog or something that lowers Will saves BEFORE casting Magic Jar. I'd also have a low Will Save backup in a cage or unconscious in case the target makes the save. You could possess the ruler's senchal and drug the ruler as a backup.
Magic Jar is also very susceptible to Protection from Evil, a first level spell.

Well, since I'm the DM and this is an instance where one NPC baddie would be taking over another and using him for cover, I think all the rolls will turn out okay! Just making sure the spell works as I think it does.

[Azothath]

Well, again, if this is a continual thing I'd have the target a bit debauched so if he succeeds he might think it's a hangover or bad wine, and it allows the caster(abuser) to drug the target(victim) in case he suspects something. These are bad people so we don't expect good behaviour...

[Ravingdork]

I've used these to great effect.