The ancestry options seem to be unbalanced


Ancestries & Backgrounds


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So, when looking over the different ancestries it's easy enough to see what ability got traded for what. All of the non-human ancestries get 2 set boosts and 1 flaw. They get common plus their own language. Then each gets some special ability that's not tied to a heritage feat.

medium sized creatures seem to be the norm, if you're small this "advantage" costs you either in hitpoints, movement or some combination there of.

Dwarf: 10, M, 20ft, +extra abilityx2
Elf: 6, M, 30ft, +extra ability
Gnome: 8, S, 20ft, +extra ability
Goblin: 6, S, 25ft, +extra ability
Halfling: 6, S, 25ft,
Human: 8, M, 25ft,

We can see that the default stats seem to be

6, M, 20ft, with each getting 1 or more of the following, +2HP, S, +5ft, +extra ability

How many each gets, is as follows
Dwarves: 4
Elves: 4
Gnome: 3
Goblin: 3
Halfling: 2
Human: 2

Even if I ignore size and I just compare medium sized races to other medium sized races, dwarves and elves get more benefits then humans do. The only advantage humans seem to get is that they can be half-orcs or half-elves or take the general training feat. Even then, you are gaining this in place of your normal ancestry feat. The thing is, a level one ancestry feat should be relatively equivalent to other level one ancestry feats, regardless of what race it's coming from. Making this not quite the advantage it seems.

All things being equal, there's little reason to pick a human over a dwarf or an elf and there's little reason to pick a halfling over a goblin or gnome. At minimum, humans and halflings need an extra trait or an extra ancestry feat in order for it to make sense to take one of these ancestries. Ancestries give you so little now in terms of set benefits that it's easy to compare them on a normalized curve.


LordKailas wrote:

So, when looking over the different ancestries it's easy enough to see what ability got traded for what. All of the non-human ancestries get 2 set boosts and 1 flaw. They get common plus their own language. Then each gets some special ability that's not tied to a heritage feat.

medium sized creatures seem to be the norm, if you're small this "advantage" costs you either in hitpoints, movement or some combination there of.

Dwarf: 10, M, 20ft, +extra abilityx2
Elf: 6, M, 30ft, +extra ability
Gnome: 8, S, 20ft, +extra ability
Goblin: 6, S, 25ft, +extra ability
Halfling: 6, S, 25ft,
Human: 8, M, 25ft,

We can see that the default stats seem to be

6, M, 20ft, with each getting 1 or more of the following, +2HP, S, +5ft, +extra ability

How many each gets, is as follows
Dwarves: 4
Elves: 4
Gnome: 3
Goblin: 3
Halfling: 2
Human: 2

Even if I ignore size and I just compare medium sized races to other medium sized races, dwarves and elves get more benefits then humans do. The only advantage humans seem to get is that they can be half-orcs or half-elves or take the general training feat. Even then, you are gaining this in place of your normal ancestry feat. The thing is, a level one ancestry feat should be relatively equivalent to other level one ancestry feats, regardless of what race it's coming from. Making this not quite the advantage it seems.

All things being equal, there's little reason to pick a human over a dwarf or an elf and there's little reason to pick a halfling over a goblin or gnome. At minimum, humans and halflings need an extra trait or an extra ancestry feat in order for it to make sense to take one of these ancestries. Ancestries give you so little now in terms of set benefits that it's easy to compare them on a normalized curve.

I think you have the base a bit wrong, it should be:

8 hps,25 move, 1 ancestory feat, 2 languages

Size does not matter in the new edition. This then leads too:

Dwarves: 3 bonuses (hps, darkvision, unburdended) + 1 penalty (move) = 2
Elves: 2 bonuses (speed and low light vision) + 1 penalty (hps) = 1
Gnome: 1 bonus (low light vision) + 1 penalty (speed) = 0
Goblin: 1 bonus (darkvision) + 1 penalty (hps) = 0
Halfling: 0 bonuses + 1 penalty (hps) = -1
Human: 0 bonuses + 0 penalties = 0
Half Orc: 2 bonuses + 1 penalty (no feat) = +1
Half Elf: 2 bonuses + 1 penalty (no feat) = +1

This doesn't account for darkvision being awesome or the fact humans are more flexiable, or half races get screwed out of a feat, or that the delta hitpoints matters little in the long run or an evaluation of how good the ancestory feats are.

In the end, dwarves get some awesome stuff, and Halflings get screwed.

Overall, I would prefer PF1 style where you get decent racial abilities from the start.


LordKailas wrote:

So, when looking over the different ancestries it's easy enough to see what ability got traded for what. All of the non-human ancestries get 2 set boosts and 1 flaw. They get common plus their own language. Then each gets some special ability that's not tied to a heritage feat.

medium sized creatures seem to be the norm, if you're small this "advantage" costs you either in hitpoints, movement or some combination there of.

Dwarf: 10, M, 20ft, +extra abilityx2
Elf: 6, M, 30ft, +extra ability
Gnome: 8, S, 20ft, +extra ability
Goblin: 6, S, 25ft, +extra ability
Halfling: 6, S, 25ft,
Human: 8, M, 25ft,

We can see that the default stats seem to be

6, M, 20ft, with each getting 1 or more of the following, +2HP, S, +5ft, +extra ability

How many each gets, is as follows
Dwarves: 4
Elves: 4
Gnome: 3
Goblin: 3
Halfling: 2
Human: 2

Even if I ignore size and I just compare medium sized races to other medium sized races, dwarves and elves get more benefits then humans do. The only advantage humans seem to get is that they can be half-orcs or half-elves or take the general training feat. Even then, you are gaining this in place of your normal ancestry feat. The thing is, a level one ancestry feat should be relatively equivalent to other level one ancestry feats, regardless of what race it's coming from. Making this not quite the advantage it seems.

All things being equal, there's little reason to pick a human over a dwarf or an elf and there's little reason to pick a halfling over a goblin or gnome. At minimum, humans and halflings need an extra trait or an extra ancestry feat in order for it to make sense to take one of these ancestries. Ancestries give you so little now in terms of set benefits that it's easy to compare them on a normalized curve.

But as far as what youre feats give you access too.... well humans are outpacing everyone and halflings are still screwed. The shear value of an extra class feat or general feat is way more then low light vision, unencumbered, or speed is gonna give you.


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Kerobelis wrote:

I think you have the base a bit wrong, it should be:

8 hps,25 move, 1 ancestory feat, 2 languages

I agree, but I flattened the base in order to make the math easier, since it effectively turns penalties into bonuses that everyone w/o the penalty gets.

Kerobelis wrote:
Size does not matter in the new edition.

This actually makes it worse.

if I use your baseline and assume that size has no effect I get

Dwarves: 2 (bonus hp, speed penalty, extra abilityx2)
Elves: 1 (hp penalty, speed bonus, extra ability)
Gnome: 0 (speed penalty, extra ability)
Goblin: 0 (hp penalty, extra ability)
Halfling: -1 (hp penalty)
Human: 0

after looking at it again, I agree that my math was off on elves. Counting small as a "bonus" would make gnomes, goblins and elves all relatively "equal". But either way, dwarves seem to get more than everyone else and halflings and humans seem to get less.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kerobelis wrote:
Size does not matter in the new edition.

size absolutely matters in this one. Just in much more hidden fashions. I am still making an exact comparitive list. However I can confidently state I have seen far more "only works against things your size or smaller" than 'have this bonus' "against things your size or larger" or even just "larger than you"

Some key examples, is things like the Dwarf Ancestry Feat "Boulder Roll" or the Fighter Feat "Aggressive Shield". Which can only work if the enemy is your size or smaller.

Or the Power "Pushing Gust". Which only works on targets your size or smaller... (This one in particular annoys me. Because this is a power that summoning wind. Since when does my personal size effect the strength of wind I can summon? Especially when the power is a divine power, granted to a Cleric, from a god?)

Also the Alarm Snare only triggers on a "Small or smaller" creature... (So the Elf and Dwarf don't trigger the snare, but the gnome does.)

EDIT: I should state that small isn't a huge negative. Simply that is precludes the use of specific abilities or builds. More so than being Medium does.


Size is a minor effect buried within the rules. Not like before where you did less damage, moved slower, much worse at maneuvers, harder to hit, etc.

I don't deny there are some rules, but for the most part, it is minor. Hell, I can be a 1d12 damaging greatsword Halfing now, which in my opinion is wrong, but it is a bonus to those who love small races.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kerobelis wrote:

Size is a minor effect buried within the rules. Not like before where you did less damage, moved slower, much worse at maneuvers, harder to hit, etc.

I don't deny there are some rules, but for the most part, it is minor. Hell, I can be a 1d12 damaging greatsword Halfing now, which in my opinion is wrong, but it is a bonus to those who love small races.

You are correct on that, and I do agree it is definitely improved from 1st edition. However, there are several abilities that still only work up to a number of size categories larger then yourself, and things like above, where only on things your size or smaller. Therefore, technically, it is still a negative when comparing races. Is it equivalent value to all the other effects listed above? Absolutely not. It is probably worth maybe a negative half-point, but it is a negative, and shouldn't be purported to be anything else in a thread trying to have accurate race comparisons.


LordKailas wrote:

Dwarves: 2 (bonus hp, speed penalty, extra abilityx2)

Elves: 1 (hp penalty, speed bonus, extra ability)
Gnome: 0 (speed penalty, extra ability)
Goblin: 0 (hp penalty, extra ability)
Halfling: -1 (hp penalty)
Human: 0

Totally agree with this.

Dwarves are the better ancestry.
Elves a little good.
Gnomes, Goblins, and Humans are "ok".
Halflings are waaaayyy worse than others.
Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are as bad as halflings, since they "don't receive" ancestry feats.

I'm ok with dwarves being better (haha), but all others should be balanced, specially halflings and half-humans.


I think heritage feats should be given out to each race for free, and it won't count towards the ancestry feat. Humans could get another bonus feat, or choose from a bunch of different mixed heritages. Half [elf/orc/giant], plane touched, and a playable version of the dragon soul would be amazing.

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