So for a new campiagn me and my friends are starting im gonna be playing an Undead lord. As ive read through it something that caught my eye was for Corpse companion its states you can make variants as your companion. Im reading this that if by following the ruling I can make him a Skeletal Champion. Now if i follow the updated Create Undead list for a Skeletal Champion you need to be 11th Caster lvl with enervation or Energy drain, and I havent been able to find any additonal ruling for this, Am I possibly reading this and interpreting it they way i want? Or does the vague writing open up the door for this? Main reason I ask because its states "such as" and not limited too and a Skeletal Champion is listed as a variant undead the Skeleton Template
Corpse Companion
With a ritual requiring 8 hours, an undead lord can animate a single skeleton or zombie whose Hit Dice do not exceed her cleric level. This corpse companion automatically follows her commands and does not need to be controlled by her. She cannot have more than one corpse companion at a time. It does not count against the number of Hit Dice of undead controlled by other methods. She can use this ability to create a variant skeleton such as a bloody or burning skeleton, but its Hit Dice cannot exceed half her cleric level. She can dismiss her companion as a standard action, which destroys it.
Referring to this page I'd say that you can't raise a Skeletal Champion until you get access to an ability that lets you raise advanced undead.
Corpse Companion acts like a really slow but free version of Lesser Animate Dead. As in you are allowed to raise a skeleton, or a zombie, and its variants. None of the variants you can raise with Animate Undead are intelligent.
A Skeletal Champion is an advanced undead that is intelligent, and you need a higher level spell to create them. Skeletal Champions like other intelligent undead have to be controlled somehow. Either by negotiation or through the use of spells and abilities. This seems to indicate Skeletal Champions and other intelligent undead aren't suitable targets for a Corpse Companion that will be automatically under the control of the Undead Lord.
So, off hand I'd say no to raising any self-aware undead with Corpse Companion even if they are a skeleton or zombie template.
Yeah my main argument for it honestly was the updated create undead table that requires Enervation/Energy Drain to summon, and the fact that its a ritual that requires 8 hours of time, Honestly reading the class more and more just seems like they threw something together just to say hey heres a Nercomancer, Granted you can function it like a Template mindless undead spawner, But like everyone else the corpse companion how about as much thought process as a Lawful stupid Paladin
Looks to me like the corpse companion is nice at early levels before you can get spells for undead animation, but in general a downgrade over vaniila cleric.
Its actually a pure upgrade. At level 1 you can have a skeleton or zombie. That is kind of impressive actually.
Furthermore its an ability that scales with your level and it is outside of the pool of undead you can otherwise control. So you can raise an army of x4 your level in HD, plus your companion.
Also the Undead Lord gets maxamized channels to heal undead, gets to heal himself with that too, and gets command undead as a bonus feat. All in all, its worth giving up a domain for it.
though I have been looking for something Meirril Do you know how the Variants stack on the HD for animate dead I.E. Making a Bloody Burning XXX Skeleton? I read it as it just triples it out 5/5/5 or is it 5/10/20? (Base/Bloody/Burning)
Like I love the class Idea because this is how I picture a necromancer I'm just a little sad that I can't make my Companion a beefed up BA without going through being a Magic item crafter....Which I'm going to do...Just make Magic items for my Undead army of 80 HD creatures
Ricimusprime wrote: though I have been looking for something Meirril Do you know how the Variants stack on the HD for animate dead I.E. Making a Bloody Burning XXX Skeleton? I read it as it just triples it out 5/5/5 or is it 5/10/20? (Base/Bloody/Burning) You can't stack the templates? The d20PFSRD listing for Animate Dead has a good listing of what you can do with the spell in its description. While its ok to let GMs stack templates anyway they want to allowing players to do the same could result in something being overpowered, or actually massively underpowered in this case. Either way, it goes somewhere I don't think most GMs are going to be comfortable with.
And now someone is going to disagree with me and point to a FAQ where it says you can do this in 3, 2, 1...
Okay I was just curious im trying to get as much information before we finally dive in and wanted to avoid doing anything that could cause a unnecessary dispute though it would fall to GM decision I just wanted to explore more opinions than my own, though i am curious why ypu think it would be under powered?
At medium levels the corpse companion is only a portion of the total undead army hou can field, between animate dead and using the command undead feat. You are limited to one domain, which I view as one of the weaker ones. So are the other benefits from the archetype worth one good domain and the difference between a good and mediocre one?
Ricimusprime wrote: Okay I was just curious im trying to get as much information before we finally dive in and wanted to avoid doing anything that could cause a unnecessary dispute though it would fall to GM decision I just wanted to explore more opinions than my own, though i am curious why ypu think it would be under powered? Lets just say for the sake of argument that the templates are additive instead of multiplicitive, so your 5 HD burning, bloody skeleton only takes up 15 HD out of your pool. It is still a 5 HD creature. Which means its going to have a BAB of about 4 and an attack on the same scale, likely 1d8+something. This 5HD creature will do a d6 of fire damage to things next to it, and if it is destroyed will do another d6 of fire damage and come back 1 hour later unless something does holy or positive energy things to it.
Or it could of been a 15HD skeleton. Such a creature would have a BAB around 10-12 and several attacks in the 1d8 to 2d6 range and a sizable strength bonus. Now granted you probably won't run into that many really convenient animals or monsters that allow you to use a lot of HD in one creature, but a plain vanilla skeleton or zombie with a lot of HD is going to be more valuable in combat than a few very special powered skeletons of 1/3rd the HD.
And this is only if the templates are allowed to add. We don't know because stacking the templates isn't allowed by Animate Dead and GMs don't have to worry about HD pools, just about making fair and balanced encounters based on CR.
Whoa there, variant skeletons count extra for how many you can create with one casting of animate dead, but count normally for how many you can control. Bloody are always a better investment of your hard earned onyx.
All right. Fine. I did a lot more digging and I found this:
PRD: Skeleton Beastiary Entry wrote: Variant Skeletons
Numerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting. Once controlled, they count normally against the controller's limit.
Perhaps the most dangerous variant skeleton, though, is the skeletal champion. This skeleton retains its intellect, and often any class levels it possessed in life. A skeletal champion cannot be created with animate dead—these potent undead only arise under rare conditions similar to those that cause the manifestation of ghosts or via rare and highly evil rituals.
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it's possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.
Which seems to answer everything. Except if they stack manipulatively or additive.
So no to Skeletal Champions, yes to template stacking, hell if I know to cost to do so because reasons.
Yes but in a situation were if templates stacked lets say the big bad is 15 HD and his minions are 5 and your a CL 10 itd be better to raise the 15 HD big bad than 1 stacked 5 HD and Meirril I greatly appreicate your feedback and input I mainly play just a beatstick Fighter/Barb so any input is greatly appreciated, like I said in my first post I want to avoid the "Because i read and understand it thats how XXX happens" Instead of what does happen
I've learned a bit more about raising undead during this too, so its all good. So the final answer is if you can afford to spend more gold and time to raise variant undead, do so.
If you can afford to pick up Use Magic Device as a skill, you could consider a wand of Blood Money. That would make raising very expensive undead bearable. Since you are a cleric you can afford to cast lesser restoration on yourself afterward, or even a full restoration if need be.
And since you are evil...you might use souls as material components. Having a Cacodaemon is the most reliable way to have a constant supply. But you can also use spells. Summon Cacodeamon is a 2nd level spell. Not bad for saving 100gp (or potentially more for more valuable souls). Look around for the Soul Market if you are interested in knowing more.
I gotta double check because i'm going Dhampir lol I honestly was just planning on getting Wands of animate dead made but at my lvl its 36250g for the wand bwhahaha but is there a rule listing for the Soul gems in other books besides Book of the Damned?
A wand of Animate Dead would be horribly expensive. You'd have to assume that you raise the maximum amount of undead per casting, so you're paying full price for a 3th level spell + components and only getting as much as a 5th level caster would get. That isn't efficient at all! You would literally be better off casting the spell raw and using onyx as needed than making a wand for it. Especially once you start running into creatures over 10 HD. Animals usually have a lot of HD compared to their CR so this could happen immediately.
Generally speaking once a rule is introduced in Pathfinder, other books refer to the previous book instead of reprinting. I think its because the company wants to encourage you to buy more books.
One thing that occures to me is if you want to improve your ability to raise undead, you want to boost the CL of your Animate Dead. Since Animate Dead is the one that sets how big your pool of skeleton/zombie HD is based on, any permanent buff you get will add 4HD per CL.
For items you can get an Orange ioun stone (+1 CL). Something like a Strand of Prayer Beads (karma) is good for a boost, but it is a temporary boost, so no good for your pool of undead. You can take the feat Extra Traits and grab 2 traits that raise the CL by +1 each. There are a ton and a half of traits that raise CL but unfortunately they are almost all social and magic. Since you are only allowed to take 1 trait from each category you have to make sure it doesn't conflict with other traits you've already taken. If your GM will let you take a Background trait from a different AP consider grabbing the Outsider: Lore Seeker trait from Rise of the Runelords AP. It lets you raise the CL of 3 spells by 1. And there is also Spell Specialization if your Int is high enough. While it requires 2 feats to take, it pays off in a 2 CL increase. A lot easier to pick up as an arcane caster. If you use Animate Dead as a combat spell, you could even justify picking up Spell Perfection which would not just let you add a metamagic to its casting for free, but also double any other feat bonuses, so another +2 CL from Spell Specialization. Honestly, Spell Perfection is probably going overboard.
By the time you hit 15th level you should already have several intelligent undead followers and you should be having them control their own army of undead minions instead of trying to expand your ability to personally control them.
On the advice forum there is a sticky thread with links to Broken Zenith's guides to guides. There is at least one nice guide to raising undead there, and lots of other good stuff.
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