Good morning,
I've been considering getting into the Pathfinder game (most probably as DM), and have a few questions. I've been playing pen & paper RPGs for over 30 years now, from Basic D&D to AD&D to 3 and 3.5 D&D, 4th ED D&D, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Earthdawn, and lots more. Consistently, I've spent most of my time in Dungeons & Dragons.
I played third edition and 3.5 D&D a few years back, and was impressed at first, but as time went on I became less so, especially with two factors: that some character creation choices were *purposefully* made worse than others to reward system mastery (paraphrased from an old Monte Cook interview), and that unless you plotted out your character build from the very beginning, you could end up with a severely gimped character as time went on. Neither of these were very appealing.
(Also: please read IMHO and YMMV for the above and everything else in this message - my experiences and perceptions may not be yours, they're being listed simply to elaborate where I'm coming from.)
So, question 1: does Pathfinder address either of these issues?
Question 2: Is there a quick review anywhere of the differences between PFRPG and D&D 3.5?
Question 3: As I mentioned above, I'm not new to RPGs, though some of my players might be, and none will have experience with the PFRPG. Would it therefore be better to start with the Beginner Box so we can all learn as we go, or better to jump right in with the Core Rulebook + Bestiary + GameMastery Guide?
Question 4: Can Beginner Box characters be converted to the full PFRPG?
Question 5: Can the Adventure Path modules (such as Carrion Crown - I have a player who really loves Gothic horror) be started/used with the Beginner Box, or do they require the full RPG?
Lastly, any other comments/advice about starting in with the PFRPG?
Thanks for the help!
(I'm not in the habit of replying to my own posts, but two more questions came to me. :))
Question 6: Are there any commonly used house rules, or do the RAW work pretty well?
Question 7: Do people generally use Golarion as a campaign setting? Is it worth picking up some sourcebooks about, or do most people roll their own campaign world?
Double mega thanks!
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I played third edition and 3.5 D&D a few years back, and was impressed at first, but as time went on I became less so, especially with two factors: that some character creation choices were *purposefully* made worse than others to reward system mastery (paraphrased from an old Monte Cook interview), and that unless you plotted out your character build from the very beginning, you could end up with a severely gimped character as time went on. Neither of these were very appealing.
Interesting - I never heard that some choices were made worse purpose. You don't happen to have a link to that interview? (if it was published on the net at all)
So, question 1: does Pathfinder address either of these issues?
It's less of an issue than in 3.5, mainly due to lower expansion books bloat that was haunting late 3.5. Some of the rules were changed or streamlined but character can still greatly suffer from poor choices. Introducing retraining rules can solve some of the problems with thoughtless builds.
Question 2: Is there a quick review anywhere of the differences between PFRPG and D&D 3.5?
There is conversion guide downloadable on paizo site.
Note that moving directly from 3.5 to PF has to be done carefuly to avoid falling to trap of using old rules: frequently when discussing various matters here on boards someone hears others refering to rule changes he haven't noticed. This are usually very minor things but reading the new rules is a must, especially with classes, races, feats, spells and magic items.Question 3: As I mentioned above, I'm not new to RPGs, though some of my players might be, and none will have experience with the PFRPG. Would it therefore be better to start with the Beginner Box so we can all learn as we go, or better to jump right in with the Core Rulebook + Bestiary + GameMastery Guide?
If you and at least some players played before I'd suggest going for core rulebook+bestiary+gamemastery guide. I haven't seen Beginers Box, however. (this is the reason I can't accurately answer questions 4 and 5)
Lastly, any other comments/advice about starting in with the PFRPG
Avoid assuming that something that worked one way in 3.5 works the same in PF until you actually read the rule. And remember that PRD and d20pfsrd are your friends! (first is official paizo prd containing core material, second is fan site containing all core material, OGL material from accesories and third-part OGL material as well as fan conversions).
EDIT: Added after seeing your second post.
Question 6: RAW is quite good. House rules are more a thing of taste than need. I'd guess that the most frequent houserule would be removal of alignement but it's not Pathfinders-specific but rather D&D-specifc.
Question 7: Fifty-fifty. Golarion is well designed but I am quite fond of Forgotten Realms and Eberron and still haven't explored either to their full potential. And our PF group do not play often enough that it could become issue in foreseeable future.
Question 1: does Pathfinder address either of these issues [of some character choices being worse than others to reward system mastery, and some character builds have to be managed carefully from the very beginning to avoid severe gimping].
Pathfinder corrected some of the well-known problems. For example, the Paladin is no longer MAD (multiple attribute dependent). On the other hand, the monk is still MAD and the rogue requires forethought to be effective in combat.
Pathfinder emphasizes single-class play, so the best progression for a character is to stay in his or her original class. No more careful planning to get a character into a Prestige Class as soon as possible.
Question 2: Is there a quick review anywhere of the differences between PFRPG and D&D 3.5?
Not that I know of. Several feats, abilities, and minor rules were changed, such as Dodge and Power Attack and grapple and negative levels. When creating a character, be sure to read the actual Pathfinder version of its abilities and feats.
This Advice forum is very good about creating guides for character classes. It even maintains a Guide to the Guides. Read the guide for a character class you are considering. The advice will clue you in on the differences between the D&D version and the Pathfinder version.
Question 3: As I mentioned above, I'm not new to RPGs, though some of my players might be, and none will have experience with the PFRPG. Would it therefore be better to start with the Beginner Box so we can all learn as we go, or better to jump right in with the Core Rulebook + Bestiary + GameMastery Guide?
I had no trouble jumping in with the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary alone. However, the Advanced Player Guide is a lot of fun, and the source of most differences between D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, so you might want to take a look at that, too.
I have not tried the Beginner's Box, so I am skipping questions 4 and 5.
Question 6: Are there any commonly used house rules, or do the RAW work pretty well?
Pathfinder Society Play, a system in which players can drop into a game without prior contact with the group, follows RAW. This proves that the rules can work without house rules. I myself think that the description of Skills is still pretty skimpy and often add house rules to fill them out with additional useful actions.
Question 7: Do people generally use Golarion as a campaign setting? Is it worth picking up some sourcebooks about, or do most people roll their own campaign world?
I am currently running the Rise of the Rulelords adventure path, set in Golarion yet written for D&D 3.5. The d20pfsrd.com has coversion advice for using it in Pathfinder. Another GM used a homemade world in a Pathfinder campaign I joined. It is a matter of taste. I like Paizo modules.
There were a whole thread about minor differences in rules that people didn't notice until much later but I can't recall it's name or the forum it was (was it rule question, general discussion or maybe other?)
Thanks for all the responses, everyone!
Drejk - I don't have a link handy to the interview, but if I find it, I'll let you know. Does Pathfinder have retraining rules in the RAW? That was one of the things I really liked about 4th-ED D&D, in that every level you could re-train one power or skill to something else, in case you wanted to try something different, or an ability didn't work out the way you were hoping.
I'm glad to hear the RAW is sound. A good, strong base can have a lot built on it!
Run, Just Run - Glad to hear the fighter has been brought up in power a bit, but what's an Archetype? I've know about prestige classes, but I've never heard of Archetypes.
Mathmuse - I'm glad to hear that staying single-classed is an attractive option now. In D&D 3/3.5, if you didn't multiclass, you'd be way behind the power curve of those who did.
Robertness - Sounds like the Beginner Box has enough value to hang on to even if I don't care for the PFRPG, and is a good introduction to the systems. I think I'll likely snag this first and give it a look-through, then pick up the Core Rulebook afterward to see the whole system in action.
New Question:
I like what I've been reading about Adventure Paths, taking a group of players from first level to gods-know-where, but aside from being drawn to the Carrion Crown path (due to liking Gothic horror/Ravenloft stuff), I'm in the dark. Are there any better or worse for a novice Pathfinder GM?
Thanks for all the advice!
To answer your question about what and Archtype. They are just different flavor for a class they add at time skills but take something away like Sohori Monk archtype of a Monk can wear light armor but loses stunning fist as bonus feat but you can still take stunning fist feat later on.
Druid that can only have certain type of animal companion.
Drejk - I don't have a link handy to the interview, but if I find it, I'll let you know. Does Pathfinder have retraining rules in the RAW? That was one of the things I really liked about 4th-ED D&D, in that every level you could re-train one power or skill to something else, in case you wanted to try something different, or an ability didn't work out the way you were hoping.
Only retrain rules in Pathfinder RAW are fighter bonus feats and spontaneous spellcasters' spells known.
Run, Just Run - Glad to hear the fighter has been brought up in power a bit, but what's an Archetype? I've know about prestige classes, but I've never heard of Archetypes.
(I don't know how complete is your knowledge of 3.5): archetypes are similar to class substitution levels that appeared in later 3.5 accessories - you exchange certain features of a particular class for alternate abilities. For example here are Fighter archetypes from Advanced Players Guide. There also alterante classes (Ninja, Samurai and Antipaladin) that are heavily modified archetypes.
Mathmuse - I'm glad to hear that staying single-classed is an attractive option now. In D&D 3/3.5, if you didn't multiclass, you'd be way behind the power curve of those who did.
Pathfinder designers stated somewhere that they wanted the classes to be able to do what they were designed to instead of being entrances for prestige classes that did the same better. In their opinion prestige classes should not do better what regular class do but instead provide new options and new abilities.
New Question:
I like what I've been reading about Adventure Paths, taking a group of players from first level to gods-know-where, but aside from being drawn to the Carrion Crown path (due to liking Gothic horror/Ravenloft stuff), I'm in the dark. Are there any better or worse for a novice Pathfinder GM?
Rise Of The Ruenlords, Curse Of The Crimson Throne and Legacy Of Fire are older than Pathfinder - they were writen for 3.5. I am not sure about Council Of Thieves - you would have to check actual date. Kingmaker and later are 100% Pathfinder. Rise Of The Runelords is actually remade as hardcover campaign book for Pathfinder (preorder will be available in June 2012).
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1. The different character types are more balanced than 3.5, considering the different classes do different things. A thief is not USUALLY as combat effective as a fighter, for example, but has a lot more non-combat options. (D&D 4th ed, for example, was more balanced but IMO they took it to an extreme.) Yes, bad choices can hurt your build later on; in a home game with new players letting people switch out bad choices, especially as they level up the first few times, is standard. (Short answer is yes to part one, and not so much to part two.)
2. There are a ton of changes, though Pathfinder was designed to be backwards compatible. Start with the 3.5 to pathfinder character conversion guide, available as a pdf. Or take a look at this thread,, for example.
3. The basic box is a FANTASTIC way to start. As stated above, if you don't like pathfinder, it has enough in it that you won't feel like you've wasted money. Note: The Gamemastery Guide is not a need to buy book for starting out. The Pathfinder Core Rulebook contains what was tranditionally in a Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Masters Guide.
4. Yes. The Beginner's Box uses the same character rules; it just has less options.
5. The Beginner's Box only goes to level 5, so you only get through the first part. I'd suggest you start with the module Crypt of the Everflame, as will be far easier, it touches on the differences between the 3.5 and Pathfinder.
6. Depends on your playstyle. The game is pretty modular so don't use what you dont want to, especially at the start. Ways to make the game simpler: limit players to one combat pet at a time, forbid item creation by characters (give Wizards a replacement feat for Scribe Scroll), give levels at certain points instead of keeping track of xp, ignore the difference between arcane and divine scrolls, ect.
7. Golarion is a not-quite kitchen sink, patch-work world. Start with the PathfinderWiki, the the pdf of the Inner Sea World Guide is only $10.
Unsolicited advice:
After the Core Rulebook, and the 1st Bestiary, I would also suggest the Advanced Player's Guide. It adds tons of options for players, and qualifies as the best RPG add-on in the last decade.
Good morning, Folks!
Drejk - the interview with Monte Cook where he talks about system mastery is here:
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142
(sorry it took me a while to come up with the link).
I don't recall substitution levels from the 3.5 stuff, but my knowledge of 3.5 is limited to the Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. If it came into the rules after that, I'm clueless. :) Archetypes sound like a lot of fun, though. Are they in the Core Rulebook or the Advanced Players Guide?
Ajaxis - Thanks for the advice, it sounds like I should probably start with the Beginners Box and go from there, to get my players and I a good grounding in Pathfinder basics. I like too how you say the game is modular so I can add in rules & systems piecemeal as time goes on. It's really sounding like Pathfinder is a heck of a product, and one that I'm going to start investing in!
How would you suggest I handle retraining? Should I do it like D&D where a player can make one change/correction every time they level up, or is there a better method, like after each adventure?
Re: Golarion, I like fantasy kitchen sink worlds ever since I cut my gaming teeth on the World of Greyhawk way back when. Sounds like Golarion is a fun place! I'll have to research this some more.
Re: the Advanced Players Guide - it's really that good? Well then. I'll put it on my eventual purchase list as well! I've been used to player supplements either being stupid, under- or over-powered, and worthless (see: some of the Complete X from AD&D 2nd-ED, Players Handbook 2 & 3 from later D&D lines), but I'll be glad to give this a look.
Is it designed to be used all at once, or is it like a piecemeal buffet of options you can use?
Thanks!
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Archetypes sound like a lot of fun, though. Are they in the Core Rulebook or the Advanced Players Guide?
They start with the APG, additional archetypes can be found in Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. The APG will really enhance your game. UM and UC are fine, but the APG is the "5 out of 5" product.
How would you suggest I handle retraining? Should I do it like D&D where a player can make one change/correction every time they level up, or is there a better method, like after each adventure?
I would suggest at leveling, that when written into the rules retraining happens, it just makes it easier. If your using the Beginner's Box, using the suggested feats and skills should alleviate the problem. (The little pictures in the skill and feat titles which match the sample characters; for example, the feat Cleave has a picture of the sample fighter.)
Re: the Advanced Players Guide - it's really that good? Well then. I'll put it on my eventual purchase list as well! I've been used to player supplements either being stupid, under- or over-powered, and worthless (see: some of the Complete X from AD&D 2nd-ED, Players Handbook 2 & 3 from later D&D lines), but I'll be glad to give this a look.
Check out the PRD ("Pathfinder Reference Document"), look under Advanced Players Guide, read all the crunch for free. The PRD can be found on the left of the Paizo page, a few lines under the search bar. (Sorry if you already know this; I'm erroring on the side of the obvious just in case.) The best non-Paizo source can be found at www.d20pfsrd.com, which contains a lot of stuff not in the PRD, both from Paizo (for example, non-core prestige classes) and third party publishers (for example, Dreamscarred Press's psionic options.)
Is it designed to be used all at once, or is it like a piecemeal buffet of options you can use?
The APG contains a bunch of player options, so it is very modular. Just don't allow those options you don't like. Don't want to deal with the summoner class, then don't allow summoners.
They start with the APG, additional archetypes can be found in Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. The APG will really enhance your game. UM and UC are fine, but the APG is the "5 out of 5" product.
Nice! Thanks for the recommendation!
I would suggest at leveling, that when written into the rules retraining happens, it just makes it easier. If your using the Beginner's Box, using the suggested feats and skills should alleviate the problem. (The little pictures in the skill and feat titles which match the sample characters; for example, the feat Cleave has a picture of the sample fighter.)
Excellent. My first purchase will definitely be the Beginner's Box, and I'll work from there. When we graduate to the full game, I'll add a retraining rule at level-up to help the PCs out.
Nice that the Beginner Box kind of holds your hand in development as well. If you know, how many players is it designed for? I may have anywhere from 3 to 7, depending on who wants to play.
Check out the PRD ("Pathfinder Reference Document"), look under Advanced Players Guide, read all the crunch for free. The PRD can be found on the left of the Paizo page, a few lines under the search bar. (Sorry if you already know this; I'm erroring on the side of the obvious just in case.) The best non-Paizo source can be found at www.d20pfsrd.com, which contains a lot of stuff not in the PRD, both from Paizo (for example, non-core prestige classes) and third party publishers (for example, Dreamscarred Press's psionic options.)
I'd glanced at it, but there's a lot to take in at first for someone new to Pathfinder, so I appreciate the pointer. I've got the d20pfsrd site bookmarked now as well.
The APG contains a bunch of player options, so it is very modular. Just don't allow those options you don't like. Don't want to deal with the summoner class, then don't allow summoners.
Nice, I like modular.
In the Ye Olde Days when I'd DM, I was pretty much a pushover for anything the players wanted to add into the game, even when I knew I wouldn't enjoy refereeing it and it would be detrimental to the campaign. Now I'm older (if not wiser ;)) and keep a close hold on what I feel like dealing with. I look forward to reading the APG and cherry-picking what I think will work.
Another question: do the challenge ratings for opponents assume not only party/character level, but also possession of X amount of magic items as well? If I go magic-light on the players' rewards, will I have to modify upcoming encounters to compensate?
Thanks for all the help!
I don't recall substitution levels from the 3.5 stuff, but my knowledge of 3.5 is limited to the Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. If it came into the rules after that, I'm clueless. :) Archetypes sound like a lot of fun, though. Are they in the Core Rulebook or the Advanced Players Guide?
Pathfinder's archetypes are also comparable with 2e's class kits.
I don't recall substitution levels from the 3.5 stuff, but my knowledge of 3.5 is limited to the Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and the Monster Manual. If it came into the rules after that, I'm clueless. :) Archetypes sound like a lot of fun, though. Are they in the Core Rulebook or the Advanced Players Guide?Pathfinder's archetypes are also comparable with 2e's class kits.
Aha, the light begins to dawn! We played extensively with kits in the AD&D 2E era, a lot of them were very cool, and a few of them tried to break game balance wide open (Complete Elf Book, I'm looking at YOU). Overall, a good concept that suffered from no line developer making sure power levels were respected.
So the Archetypes are like kits, eh? Are they balanced out pretty well between each other?
And do they add a character bonus big enough that playing a PC *without* an Archetype means instant gimpage in comparison to those who do?
Thanks!
archetypes aren't generally better than others, except if you go for specifics, a melee bard is tough to create without archetype, but you can create a normal bard that is just as good.
There are balance issues between min-maxers and those who take it 1 level at a time, but they are not nearly as severe as in 3.5, not by lightyears.
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So the Archetypes are like kits, eh? Are they balanced out pretty well between each other?And do they add a character bonus big enough that playing a PC *without* an Archetype means instant gimpage in comparison to those who do?
Most of the times, the archetypes are just different, not necessarily better or worse.
The one exception I can think of is the Invulnerable Rager archetype for barbarians. I can't imagine playing a barb without that. You give up trap finding or something like that in order to get damage reduction equal to half your barb level.
In my first adventure after hitting 4th level with my barbarian, we fought two beasties that got 3+ hits per round on me and my lousy AC, and I just sat there soaking up all the damage. Even 2 point of DR, on top of the extra HP from raging like any barbarian, was enough to make my character into an absolute beast of a tank against monsters that would have devoured any other member of our group.
I'll add a "me too" to the recommendation of getting the Advanced Players Guide. After the Core Rulebook and Bestiary, that's the third book to get. Everything else is pretty much optional, depending on what type of stuff you want to add to your game, but I'd consider those three to be the essential core rulebooks.
My group just switched from 4th to PF. I (the DM) had extensive 3.5 experience before 4th. So here are my thoughts:
Pathfinder's major philosophy change from 3.5 is "more carrots, less sticks".
For example: You aren't penalized for training in non-class skills (no more 1/2 ranks), you are simply rewarded for training in class skills (at least 1 rank gets you a +3 bonus).
Another example: You pick a 'favored class' like in 3.5 but instead of punishing non-favored class levels with XP penalties, you are rewarded for leveling in your favored class (+1 hp or +1 skill point is the base, though expansion books create the idea of race+class specific bonuses).
Combat maneuvers got a good fix too; they use specific attack (CMB) and defense (CMD) scores to resolve and there are a few new maneuvers (dirty tricks is a nice catch-all mechanic for throwing dust into a person's eyes, boxing their ears, or other status-granted affects).
As for the APG: I agree; it is some good stuff. Archetypes let the base classes really specialize in a relatively reasonable way. Basic idea is that you give up some of the base class features and gain different features. So a Brute rogue loses trap related abilities in order to gain more melee-focused abilities. It is a smart way to expand on the base classes in a controlled way.
As for Carrion Crown: This is the module we started when we switched to pathfinder. It is quality stuff, but it is also rather difficult. It racks up quite the death count, especially in later books. One really nice thing about it however is that it does a good job providing non-combat options for gaining xp and interacting with the well established environs.
Nice that the Beginner Box kind of holds your hand in development as well. If you know, how many players is it designed for? I may have anywhere from 3 to 7, depending on who wants to play.
The begginner box assumes 4 players and a dm, there is an optional download for a 5th character class to make 5 players workable. But more then 5 would be problematic as there are only 5 begginer classes and there would be alot of overlap. Though obviously there is still room within the classes to make different kinds of characters besides the default (already provided) iconics.
Another question: do the challenge ratings for opponents assume not only party/character level, but also possession of X amount of magic items as well? If I go magic-light on the players' rewards, will I have to modify upcoming encounters to compensate?
Thanks for all the help!
Yes, a level of wealth (wealth by level charct in the game mastering section of the core rules or in the prd) is assumed. And that wealth is expected to be in the form of magic items mostly. In pathfinder magic items are a form of power like they were in 3.5. If your players have less of this they wont be as capable as the core assumption of the game. So you will have to pay attention to how difficult encounters get at higher levels. There are however a ton of threads here on these boards that talk about replacing that wealth in magic items with other abilities or modifying the system in order to accomodate fewer magic items once you graduate to the full rules of the game.
Edit
In case you didnt get the one reply i saw it in, if you are interested in learning about golarion, I strongly recommend taking a look at the pathfinder wiki to see if you like the setting. It has a ton of reference info on the various regions religions etc. And if you do like it there is a real wealth of material available to add to your game.