The following are a few assorted questions and comments I had while reading through the fighter class.
Open Feats: For clarity, shouldn’t all of these feats have the following reminder text: “Requirements: You have not used an attack action this turn.”
Press Feats: For clarity, when exactly can these be used? It seems like press feats are supposed to be used any time after you make your first attack on your turn, but the actual rules use circuitous language about multiple attack penalties, which seems to be a very roundabout way of explaining things. Wouldn’t it just be easier to add the following reminder text to each press feat: “Requirements: You have used at least one other attack action this turn.”
Exotic Weapon Training: Why does this grant trained proficiency with an exotic weapon when fighters are already trained with all exotic weapons? Is that just there for multiclassing purposes?
Revealing Stab: How does getting a weapon stuck in you necessarily immobilize you? If the answer involves pinning a target to a nearby surface, what happens if the target is flying in the air or swimming in a vast expanse of water? Also, what happens if the target is amorphous?
Whirlwind Strike: Why does this have the open descriptor? There are only a small number of edge cases where you are going to have more than three actions on your turn, so adding this restriction seems to be largely unnecessary.
Impossible Volley: How much ammunition does this require?
A question/comment about fighters in general: Why does the fighter class, in particular, involve so many conditional restrictions upon the use of its abilities?
So many fighter feats seem to read like, “whenever you are wielding a one-handed piercing weapon with one hand free, and are already in a dueling stance, and haven’t used an attack action yet this turn, and are adjacent to an enemy, you can Stride double your speed and Strike with the required weapon, but only if you end that movement adjacent to a different enemy, and when you do, your movement doesn’t trigger reactions if you move in a straight line and the phase of the moon is just right.”
I understand the desire to give fighters something more interesting to do than just move and attack, but to me, “keeping track of what conditional actions I get to use this round,” doesn’t qualify as interesting. That’s just bookkeeping. The fighter would be much more interesting if most fighter feats were useful in a wide variety of circumstances with a wide variety of weapons. Then, instead of asking, “Which of these conditional actions can my fighter actually use this round?”, I can ask, “Which of these broadly-applicable actions does my fighter want to use this round?” That’s much more interesting.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Exotic Weapon Training has it gain proficiency and crit effects as if it were a martial weapon, so you improve your progression with that weapon.
Press effects can be used while you have a multiple attack penalty, but the penalty must be at least -4 to get an effect on a failed attack roll.
Adding questions:
Improved Brutish Shove: Specifies that it can be used on a creature one size larger. Is that a reference to the Shove mechanic, or an oversight due to Brutish Shove not containing size-specific limitations?
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Answering the question created additional questions. The shove mechanic (in athletics) explains that it can be used with enemies up to two size categories larger. Does this increase that limit to three, or does it actively make it worse? In addition, the shove mechanic states you can move in the same direction as the opponent. Does that also apply to non-shove abilities that utilize shove?
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Also the way its worded Two-Weapon Flurry can't be used if you get the Agile Grace trait which is pretty poor design and bad feeling imo.
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I concur regarding Two-Weapon Flurry not stacking with Agile Grace. I wish it did.
Also, what exactly does the feat do? From what I'm reading, you make two strikes, but the prerequisite is that your MAP must already be at -8 or worse. This implies you've already made 2 strikes... so you get to make a 3rd and 4th at the same time with one action (as per the single [Action] symbol)?
And why the descriptor "These do not count toward the multiple attack penalty until the second Strike."? If this is my 3rd (and 4th) strike (again, assuming the -8 MAP), why mention another 2nd strike?
Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly and am misunderstanding what the feat actually does. But if the purpose of 2E is to make rules more easy to comprehend, the language of this feat doesn't seem to accomplish that.
Something else about the fighter class that made me wonder:
Will saves: Why are fighters only trained in Will saves while rangers are expert in Will saves? That seems backwards to me, especially now that rangers are not spellcasters. Rangers have no Will-related class features, while fighters at least get Bravery by default. It feels almost as if the fighter and ranger saving throw proficiencies got swapped in a copy-paste error during layout.
SamosNemo wrote: Also, what exactly does the feat do? From what I'm reading, you make two strikes, but the prerequisite is that your MAP must already be at -8 or worse. This implies you've already made 2 strikes... so you get to make a 3rd and 4th at the same time with one action (as per the single [Action] symbol)? Yes, that is what the feat says.
SamosNemo wrote: And why the descriptor "These do not count toward the multiple attack penalty until the second Strike."? If this is my 3rd (and 4th) strike (again, assuming the -8 MAP), why mention another 2nd strike?
Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly and am misunderstanding what the feat actually does. But if the purpose of 2E is to make rules more easy to comprehend, the language of this feat doesn't seem to accomplish that.
I dunno, it seemed straightforward to me. If you are wielding two weapons, each in a different hand, and have a -8 MAP with both weapons, you make a strike, this strike does not increase your MAP. You then make another strike, after this, you increase your MAP as though you had struck twice (which you did.)
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John Teixeira wrote:
SamosNemo wrote: And why the descriptor "These do not count toward the multiple attack penalty until the second Strike."? If this is my 3rd (and 4th) strike (again, assuming the -8 MAP), why mention another 2nd strike?
Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly and am misunderstanding what the feat actually does. But if the purpose of 2E is to make rules more easy to comprehend, the language of this feat doesn't seem to accomplish that.
I dunno, it seemed straightforward to me. If you are wielding two weapons, each in a different hand, and have a -8 MAP with both weapons, you make a strike, this strike does not increase your MAP. You then make another strike, after this, you increase your MAP as though you had struck twice (which you did.)
Forgive me for resurrecting this thread, but, as I understand it, the standard MAP is -5 (-4 agile)after first attack, and -10 (-8) after the second and thereafter. Per the rules of the MAP, it NEVER gets bigger than -10 (-8) under any circumstances.
Two Weapon Flurry can't be used until that penalty is already maxed out, but the last piece of it says that the penalty doesn't increase until after the second attack it grants. Since the penalty CAN'T increase beyond what it was at before you used the Flurry, shouldn't the last sentence just not exist because it is a direct contradiction of the rules?
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Epic Meepo wrote: Something else about the fighter class that made me wonder:
Will saves: Why are fighters only trained in Will saves while rangers are expert in Will saves? That seems backwards to me, especially now that rangers are not spellcasters. Rangers have no Will-related class features, while fighters at least get Bravery by default. It feels almost as if the fighter and ranger saving throw proficiencies got swapped in a copy-paste error during layout.
Well, my "educated guess" would be that the inspiration for Ranger never succumbed to the Ring, and the Fighter of Fighter (Boromir) most certainly did.
But I highly doubt that is the actual reason. Even though it would make me happy if it was.
Camellen wrote: Exotic Weapon Training has it gain proficiency and crit effects as if it were a martial weapon, so you improve your progression with that weapon.
Press effects can be used while you have a multiple attack penalty, but the penalty must be at least -4 to get an effect on a failed attack roll.
Adding questions:
Improved Brutish Shove: Specifies that it can be used on a creature one size larger. Is that a reference to the Shove mechanic, or an oversight due to Brutish Shove not containing size-specific limitations?
That's not true.
It gives crit Specialisation as a martial, but proficiency is at trained (or - 1 of your martial group for a fighter)
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