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The actual, as written procedure for pfs and SFS has so many steps and takes so much work that it's almost universally discarded for the sake of expediency and practicality. The DM filling out six pieces of paper filling out parts, handing it over, player fills out other parts, then the
The last time we had this discussion for PFS we had one person say that they had seen one dm that followed it to the letter. One person said they always followed it to the letter, bringing the total up to 2.
Then we found out they were the same person. Its that rare.
We should change the official steps to be a bit more in line with existing procedures in practice.
PFS number: okay, the DM should fill this in online, as its the only way to track the credit with the chronicle.
Player name, character name : The player knows that stuff, leave it for them. the pFS number covers it.
Sign initial xp (because hey, the PCs could have flubbed the mission)
Fame: Sign and fill, because they might not have gotten full
Credits: sign and fill
Dayjob. Sign and fill. For that guy who always nat 20s this.
Big point of contention 1. the total. I am not checking 6 peices of math after a session. You've also left the player no good time to shop (because they didnt know how much gold they'd have). Standard procedure is to leave this blank, let the player go home and total it up at their leisure, and shop at their leisure.
If you save it to the next session they have to track everything from this session, come back in 2 weeks and write it on their next sheet at the start of the session... when they don't have the sheet.
The DM should just sign off on the credits earned and be done with it.
Factions.... here's where the sheet is really annoying. You have up to 3 factions you need the DM to worry about. (2 bonus credits and the characters slotted faction. This really should just be faction +x
When I look at the information the DM needs from each player for a starfinder session it's going accross 3 screens on an excel sheet.
At the bottom: everything should stay the same. Not sure about the event code. What is that needed for really? If you report an event afterwards and make an event for it you generally don't have one on hand when you're filling out chronicle sheets.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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The Event code is needed if you need to find an error with the event. If I would change the bottom I would remove the event line (As it is too short for most event names so most GMs use shorthands anyways)
I would vastly prefer a official praxis more in line with reality: Just fill out the "GM-ONLY" boxes (XP/PP/GP/Event details) This would be enough to convey the neccessary information and would lead to people actually following the rules.
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Generally speaking I think the chronicle sheets for both campaigns work just fine. Unless we go to a digital model, I don't see the need to change the forms, just for the sake of change.
What could you get off the event code that you can't get off the DMs pfs number?
VC/RVC who have to make corrections, additions, etc to events after the fact do not have the ability to search by PFS#. We need the event code. In some cases the User Name can be effective, but generally speaking, the event code is the primary/only way to archive search. Take that away and everything has to go through Paizo customer service who is a bit busy doing other things than to spend much time monkeying around with historical OP data.
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Unless we go to a digital model, I don't see the need to change the forms, just for the sake of change.
What. The. hell.
Did i say, hey, I woke up this morning and for absolutely no reason said hey we should change the chronicle sheets and the procedure around them?
No. I absolutely did not. I said hey, i really need to get some cross flow ventilation going in here. That thought wasn't random either.
I said they should be changed for a reason.
I laid out what those reasons are.
I think I have a pretty good case that this is not one of those things that's just me.
And when you can't even bother to learn what that reason is, when you dismiss it "for the sake of change" you're putting words into my mouth that i did not say and you're using your words to dismiss me out of hand.
Not cool.
Generally speaking I think the chronicle sheets for both campaigns work just fine
Then why is altering the procedure near universal?
What could you get off the event code that you can't get off the DMs pfs number?VC/RVC who have to make corrections, additions, etc to events after the fact do not have the ability to search by PFS#. We need the event code. In some cases the User Name can be effective, but generally speaking, the event code is the primary/only way to archive search. Take that away and everything has to go through Paizo customer service who is a bit busy doing other things than to spend much time monkeying around with historical OP data.
See THATS a point.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South
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Well I also think the SHEETS are fine, the problem is the procedure to fill them out. Most of the time they are handed out with all GM-fields filled out or the players should fill in their number and mark their tier/slowtrack and the GM uses this for reporting and gives back the chronicle filled out.
I agree with Bob that we VOs NEED the event code, it might be the most importat information for correcting wrong chronicles. The date is also needed to find out in which order chronicles have to be applied (or to order tham after the stack got mixxed up-> Especialy for players who do not use a binder) The GM-number is needed to identify who ran the game which can be important to find out if there was a error in reporting.
But I completely agree with BigNorseWolf that the procedure is not realy needed and is not folloewd in reality. And especially with PF2 coming up it would help to make the wanted procedure something that is feasible to follow. (Especially with cons/gamestores where we have maybe 3-5 minutes to wrap up the table and give out the chronicles)
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Having the Faction line at the top of the PFS Chronicle Sheet made sense.
Having the Faction line at the top of the SFS Chronicle Sheet does not make sense.
The current system of "three lines at the bottom" is bonkers stupid. Nobody agrees on how it should be filled out or who should be filling it out. I regularly drive two hours in each cardinal direction to game in other regions and constantly see it done differently. And that's assuming it gets done. I've seen plenty of Chronicles where the players aren't keeping track of it at all (or are only keeping track of their main Faction).
Everything about Factions on Chronicle Sheets needs to change.
For starters, we need at least 5 lines (I'd prefer 6 for future proofing). Both of my highest level characters have Reputation with each Faction, and it just gets written in the margins. You need to keep track of every point to calculate your Reputation Tier for the "All Factions" Boons.
Either get rid of the Faction line at the top, or relabel it to something like "Current Faction Championed". Have all the other Faction lines rest just below your Player/Character information. That way players fill out the top, GMs fill out the right side and bottom. It's more visible up there and demands more attention than the current "afterthought" positioning at the bottom.
It will require a redesign. I'll see if I can post a suggestion after the holiday. But regardless of what the new layout becomes, it can't stay the way it is now.
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Here I think we have went with "everyone can keep track of their factions and fame/reputation the way they want, as long as it is consistent". I agree that the way we're supposed to mark the points at the bottom of the sheet is in no way clear.
In a more general sense, filling the chronicles usually goes here like this: "Okay, here is my GM chronicle, everyone fill their char names and numbers on the back of it while I fill your chronicles". Then the GM goes around the table asking everyone their track, dayjob results and if they're in-subtier or not. GM only fills the GM only parts (XP, reputation and money gained and the bottom tracking information), hands out the chronicles and the players fill out the rest.
I guess having a small scene and most of the same players all the time helps in this kind of more informal approach.
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Changelog:
• Created 6 lines for Factions with one distinguished from the others
• A larger "7" for the Character Number
• Removed the "Normal" checkbox for credits (there is no Slow Track)
• Moved Chronicle Number box down into Player/Character information (because seriously, new players miss it up in the top right corner)
• Added Infamy tracker to right side of sheet (because that should be something the GM does)
• Removed GM signature from bottom of sheet (because, why? We already have GM initials in the boxes and GM #)
• Changed "Initial Fame" to "Starting Fame" (For consistency, because every other section has "Starting")
Thoughts?
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• Created 6 lines for Factions with one distinguished from the others
Looks reasonable
• A larger "7" for the Character Number
Good with that
• Removed the "Normal" checkbox for credits (there is no Slow Track)
Assuming there will be future expansion into slow track once there is more content, I oppose this one. We don't want to have to redesign the sheet multiple times. Leave it for now. Its not hurting anything. Plus it keeps more consistency in appearance to PFS. The two campaigns are separate, but a good amount of the GMs run both and having both sheets look the same will reduce errors and increase speed of completion which is important for events always pressed for time
• Moved Chronicle Number box down into Player/Character information (because seriously, new players miss it up in the top right corner)
I prefer it at the top in a prominent location. IMO it will be missed more often in the body of the document than isolated in the heading area
• Added Infamy tracker to right side of sheet (because that should be something the GM does)
Makes sense
• Removed GM signature from bottom of sheet (because, why? We already have GM initials in the boxes and GM #)
Disagree. The signature provides a level of legitimacy to the sheet even if it is illusory. Makes the form "feel" complete and should encourage GMs to verify they have completed their information correctly
• Changed "Initial Fame" to "Starting Fame" (For consistency, because every other section has "Starting")
Consistency in language is good
Just my opinion, YMMV
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The signature field still has uses, so I'd be surprised to see it go. (Even if you don't have a signature that's still the place where I've seen all the local authentication stuff go, like stamps and embossing.)
Also, the chronicle number in the top right seems optimized for paper use in a binder or folder--it lets you quickly scan through chronicles until you find the chronicle of that number. I don't know how frequently that gets used, but it's handy for me.
All in all I really like what you've done. Expanding the faction listing is important, tracking infamy is valuable. It looks good.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@Nefreet: I like your setup, but want two more things:
1) an indicator of which faction you championed.
2) in the credits part of the right column, a Subtotal field below Starting Credits + Credits Gained + Day Job, but before Credits Spent and Final Credits Total. Makes checking your bookkeeping much easier.
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1) an indicator of which faction you championed.
One of these things is indeed not like the others ^_^
2) in the credits part of the right column, a Subtotal field below Starting Credits + Credits Gained + Day Job, but before Credits Spent and Final Credits Total. Makes checking your bookkeeping much easier.
So one of the problems with sticking Infamy on the right side is that you don't have much room for anything else. I, too, like blank boxes for subtotals. I'll see if maybe I can condense Fame and Infamy into one section. That would free up a lot of space.
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• Removed the "Normal" checkbox for credits (there is no Slow Track)Assuming there will be future expansion into slow track once there is more content, I oppose this one. We don't want to have to redesign the sheet multiple times. Leave it for now. Its not hurting anything.
If you look at the PFS Chronicle Sheets, there's a box for Slow and a box for Normal. Since there is no Slow Track in SFS, we're left with a box that doesn't mean anything. And it does hurt the layout, in that I used some of that space for the Infamy section.
Without a Slow box, the Chronicle will need to be redesigned anyways in order to put one in. PFS went through multiple redesigns. I have no illusion that we'll have one Chronicle to rule them all. I just mostly want to fix Factions and Infamy.
(but I'll see what I can do when/if I redo the Infamy section)
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Working on Draft #2. Trying to incorporate as many of your suggestions as possible. Combining Fame and Infamy into one section without losing formatting appears possible, and then frees up space for a subtotal box for credits and a more expansive slow/normal/out-of-tier section up top.
I probably won't be able to post it until tomorrow, though.
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If you look at the PFS Chronicle Sheets, there's a box for Slow and a box for Normal. Since there is no Slow Track in SFS, we're left with a box that doesn't mean anything. And it does hurt the layout, in that I used some of that space for the Infamy section.
Your assumption that there will never be a slow track for SFS is invalid. There will be one. It has been asked for. I recall Thurston saying that the need for slow track now is not there because there is not enough adventures to support it. But he felt it would be added soon. Slow track has been asked for from the very start. So it does need to stay.
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Removing the signature line is somewhat indicative of the current generation. I don't have a signature. Nobody I work with does, either (we're all mid-20s/mid-30s). We never learned cursive growing up. My "signature" is just my initials inside a circle.
Really? You have signed to buy a car or sign your drivers license that way?
Seems like it would be really easy to forge that way.
My wife is teacher and she says cursive stopped being taught because of the focus on testing does not leave time to teach it properly.
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If you look at the PFS Chronicle Sheets, there's a box for Slow and a box for Normal. Since there is no Slow Track in SFS, we're left with a box that doesn't mean anything.Your assumption that there will never be a slow track for SFS is invalid.
That is a claim I never made. You are misunderstanding my point. I am talking about the present.
So it does need to stay.
Please do me a favor so I can best explain where I'm coming from and what I'm describing: Look at a recent PFS Chronicle Sheet as you read this post.
Notice that there are two checkboxes for each Subtier. One reads "Normal", and one reads "Slow". Each checkbox rests above a corresponding gold amount.
Now, look at a SFS Chronicle Sheet. Notice that there is only one checkbox for each Subtier. It reads "Normal". Under that one checkbox is a single credit amount.
Without a corresponding opposite, that single checkbox means nothing. It is literally useless. It could read "Slow", "Normal", "Beetlejuice" or even "Friend Chicken", and it would still mean nothing. What happens when you check it? What happens when you don't? The answer is the same.
You need at least two checkboxes for a checkbox system to work. The PFS Chronicle has two checkboxes because each one has meaning. Checking one gives a different answer than checking the other.
My removal of this single checkbox in my drafts for a new Chronicle design changes nothing.
"But! But! There WILL be a Slow Track!"
Cool.
When that time comes, the credits section of the Chronicle can be redesigned. Regardless of what I do in this thread, that section would need to be redesigned anyways. And it's not the focus of this redesign. The focus is to create a more intuitive tracker for Factions, Fame, Reputation and Infamy.
On an unrelated note:
My "signature" is just my initials inside a circle.Really? You have signed to buy a car or sign your drivers license that way?
Four auto loans and a mortgage so far. Plus every legal document. What else do you imagine I should sign with? An "X"?
My wife is teacher and she says cursive stopped being taught because of the focus on testing does not leave time to teach it properly.
I have a teaching degree as well, but that's not why people are losing the ability to write. It's because the time that used to be allocated to handwriting is now dedicated to typing.
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• A larger "7" for the Character Number
• Removed the "Normal" checkbox for credits (there is no Slow Track)
• Moved Chronicle Number box down into Player/Character information (because seriously, new players miss it up in the top right corner)
• Added Infamy tracker to right side of sheet (because that should be something the GM does)
• Removed GM signature from bottom of sheet (because, why? We already have GM initials in the boxes and GM #)
• Changed "Initial Fame" to "Starting Fame" (For consistency, because every other section has "Starting")
• Added "other" box for out-of-the-ordinary credit totals, possibly for when someone goes Slow Track, or also when a group misses a success condition or cannot continue the session.
• Added "Subtotal" box for Credits (did you know we haven't had a subtotal box in PFS since Season 4!??)
• Changed the somewhat redundant pairing of "Final" and "Total" to just "Final" (open to discussion)
• Removed several of the corner markings, but left the ones inside the actual Chronicle text area (if this doesn't make sense, compare Draft 1 to Draft 2)
• Placed a "Chronicle #" box back up in the top right.
• Changed the previous location of "Chronicle #" to "Current Faction Championed".
Point of discussion:
• Removed the "GMs Initials" boxtext from the entire right side of the sheet. Shaded boxes still read "GM Only".
I feel we should discuss whether having each of these boxes initialed is actually important or required. Currently, we have both the GM Signature at the bottom of the Chronicle, and GM Initials at every step along the right side. Those two systems seem redundant to me. I know that I, as a GM, dread having to pre-sign every one of those boxes before game begins (so we can get out that much faster). It's a chore. We should have either Signature, or Initials, and not both. And since people brought up the good point that some GMs use stamps for their Chronicles, my newest vote is to get rid of GM Initials along the right side (rather than the Signature line below, as in Draft 1). The boxes are still shaded and read "GM Only" anyways.
Thoughts?
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Removing the signature line is somewhat indicative of the current generation. I don't have a signature. Nobody I work with does, either (we're all mid-20s/mid-30s). We never learned cursive growing up. My "signature" is just my initials inside a circle.Really? You have signed to buy a car or sign your drivers license that way?
Seems like it would be really easy to forge that way.
True story:
In my signature the “vin” at the end of my first name tends to flow together. I was at the DMV getting my license and signed the electronic pad for the signature to be printed on my license. The agent looked at it and said “your name is Ken?” “No, I’m Kevin.” “Well, you need to re-sign. That looks like Ken.” “But that’s how I sign my name.” “But it looks like Ken.” “That’s just what my signature looks like.” “I’m not going to give you your license until I can read Kevin.” So I painstakingly wrote my name in cursive.
The end result was that I had a signature on my license that looked nothing like how I actually sign my name. On the rare occasion that a business wanted to compare signatures (personal check), it caused all kinds of headaches.
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To the point about the normal check box, yeah in is not necessary at this time. But it will be.
So in your mockups, include slow track and design accordingly. That way we are ahead of the game.
The whole reputation thing is fubar right now. Room is tight on three forms so adding lines is difficult if the desire is to have room fire bonds and items.
With my highest level character, who has rep in five of the factions, I only record the rep for the faction(s) I earn from the adventure and leave off the rest.
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** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Point of discussion:
• Removed the "GMs Initials" boxtext from the entire right side of the sheet. Shaded boxes still read "GM Only".I feel we should discuss whether having each of these boxes initialed is actually important or required. Currently, we have both the GM Signature at the bottom of the Chronicle, and GM Initials...
I don't dread pre-filling out chronicle sheets, but I have to say, initialling them does seem a bit over the top. I have to use my initials more on a single chronicle sheet than I do to get a loaner car while mine is in the shop.
I think this looks great. I do reserve the right to agree with better ideas posted later. :)
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With my highest level character, who has rep in five of the factions, I only record the rep for the faction(s) I earn from the adventure and leave off the rest.
How do you track the reputation earned on your previous Chronicles for those other Factions?
My highest level character is similarly reputed, and I find I have to scribble from sheet to sheet to keep track of it.
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With my highest level character, who has rep in five of the factions, I only record the rep for the faction(s) I earn from the adventure and leave off the rest.
That’s how the guide indicates it is to be done, and I don’t see a way to change that. It’s always been stated that factions will be added (and possibly retired). Indeed, the first Minor Faction was introduced as the PaizoCon GM boon. In a few seasons it may be possible for a character to have rep with a dozen factions. That’s why I use my boon tracker to keep up with total Faction rep.
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With my highest level character, who has rep in five of the factions, I only record the rep for the faction(s) I earn from the adventure and leave off the rest.That’s how the guide indicates it is to be done, and I don’t see a way to change that.
On the contrary, I see a very big obvious glaring reason why it needs to be changed: when counting your total reputation from all Factions.
Every one of my characters has an "All Factions" Boon. I am always waiting and watching for my total reputation to reach the next tier.
Currently, the only way I can do that is to write outside of the area given to me on the Chronicle Sheet.
That makes zero sense to me.
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I use my boon tracker to keep up with total Faction rep.
I love your Tracker. I advertise it all the time. I don't personally use it, but that's because I love using baseball card sleeves instead.
Regardless of whether someone uses your tracker, or baseball card sleeves, or scribbles, nobody should be required to improvise a tracker. One should exist that does the job without any adjustments.
That's what I'm hoping to hammer out here (albeit in full knowledge that Leadership may not even endorse such a suggestion).
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With my highest level character, who has rep in five of the factions, I only record the rep for the faction(s) I earn from the adventure and leave off the rest.That’s how the guide indicates it is to be done, and I don’t see a way to change that.On the contrary, I see a very big obvious glaring reason why it needs to be changed: when counting your total reputation from all Factions.
Every one of my characters has an "All Factions" Boon. I am always waiting and watching for my total reputation to reach the next tier.
Currently, the only way I can do that is to write outside of the area given to me on the Chronicle Sheet.
That makes zero sense to me.
What I mean by "no way to change that" is that within 3 or 4 years a character could easily end up with a dozen or more factions with which they have reputation. If you try to put a line for each faction, you'll end up taking up way too much real estate.
I too am not happy about it because I would like players to be able to see all their reputations on the most recent chronicle instead of digging back through them all to see the last time they got reputation with a particular faction. But I don't see a way to change that without eating up way too much real estate. You can currently track "All Factions" reputation on one of the lines if you want. (Though there are scenarios where you would run out of lines - slot one Faction Champion and gain a point with two others through scenario actions.)
I am constantly writing notes in whatever blank space I can find on a chronicle. Usually purchases, but also things that are supposed to be on the chronicles (per the Guide). Like my Instructor boon, where I am supposed to track the amount of progress gained during each scenario. Or Collector and Examiner, where I have to mark down the type of creature.
It would be very helpful for the chronicle designers and layout artists to consciously set aside a "Notes" space on each chronicle for all these things we need to write.
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I doubt there will ever be a dozen Factions. Starfinder Society will only be around for another ten years, and I think Leadership learned through PFS's stint that ten Factions was too many.
My tentative design now has space for six. IMO, that is sufficiently future proofed for a good several years, at least. It should probably cover the majority of characters.
And at least it's more intuitive to fill out than the current version ^_^
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For total rep, I used a digital character sheet that tracks faction reputation so it is part of my character sheet when I print it out.
That's cool and all, but ultimately falls under the "nobody should be required to improvise a tracker" premise.
If a company wants to implement a new way of doing things (Reputation vs. Prestige), they should provide a method for tracking the new system.
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I doubt there will ever be a dozen Factions. Starfinder Society will only be around for another ten years, and I think Leadership learned through PFS's stint that ten Factions was too many.
Remember thst one of the factions is intentionally designed to rotate out, the second seekers and will need to be tracked desperately, couple that with the aforementioned minor factions and I can see the need for a lot of spaces over time if you need to list every faction possible.
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Remember that one of the factions is intentionally designed to rotate out, the second seekers and will need to be tracked separately
I was unaware of this =\
Okay, so, the current Chronicle design has room for three Factions. My latest redesign has room for six.
Can I get suggestions for a number that most people are comfortable with?
Probably something either 4, 6 or 8 for ease of layout and less space.
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I think 3 is fine because I can't imagine a scenario will have more than 2 faction tags, which means at most you will be gaining reputation for 3 factions, I think people need understand the fact that they won't be able to see their current reputation with every single faction on every chronicle and will have to go back in time to see the last chronicle they earned reputation for a given faction if their current mission has an additional faction reputation.
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Is there anything else you would change about the current Chronicle layout?
I think the rep section needs to be changed to 3 boxes with the GM filling out the middle box with the reputation earned similar to how XP and gold are handled. Other than that I think its fine, personally.
I think the reputation at the bottom works fine, people just haven't read the guide I feel like its spelled out how its done there but labeling the boxes on the chronicle sheet or moving to three boxes and shading the third and saying rep earned would work. I'm not sure how best to lay that out.
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Why do you want GMs doing that part?
Because only the GM knows the reputation gained, so the same reason I want the GM doing the XP, fame, and credits sections on the right.
While the 2 reputation in your own faction are tied to the fame (so far), the additional rep for other factions have different success conditions which are sometimes, but not always, tied to succeeding at the primary or secondary success condition and sometimes tied to something completely different.
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Why do you want GMs doing that part?Because only the GM knows the reputation gained, so the same reason I want the GM doing the XP, fame, and credits sections on the right.
While the 2 reputation in your own faction are tied to the fame (so far), the additional rep for other factions have different success conditions which are sometimes, but not always, tied to succeeding at the primary or secondary success condition and sometimes tied to something completely different.
And there are also boons that you can purchase or gain that may grant additional reputation... which can add a 4th possible faction on one Chronicle sheet.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think Reputation is starting to resemble equipment: you need to track two things. What you have right now (an equipment list, a list of all reputation you have with all factions) and a history of how you got there (ITS, reputation gain on chronicle sheets).
Current Situation and History are sufficiently different data types that they're really hard to compress into a single data structure.