Order of Operations (This Tactic Seems Cheap, But Legit)

[Neal Litherland]

So, I've currently having fun with a shadowdancer, and a thought occurred to me. I checked the rules, and it seems like it works, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss an errata somewhere.

Say that my shadowdancer acts first in initiative. He is in an area of dim light, and thus could use his Shadowjump as a standard action. There is a sorceress also in an area of dim light, about 40 feet away. I ready an action that, if she begins to cast a spell, I'm going to use my power to jump right behind her.

The sorceress begins to cast, thus triggering my readied action. My action happens first, and I shadowjump directly behind her. According to the Core rules, my initiative is now directly before hers is. My action happened first, and now I am right behind her as she continues. Does her casting now provoke an attack of opportunity, since I slid into place before she began her casting according to the order of operations?

[Talonhawke]

I guess it depends if AoO's count as an action for Dimension Door preventing any action till your next turn.

[Cavall]

Interesting take

As you said cheap, but maybe legit!

[Neal Litherland]

Talonhawke wrote:

I guess it depends if AoO's count as an action for Dimension Door preventing any action till your next turn.

My reading of that was that your turn ended once you used the ability, but that it wouldn't stop you from taking immediate actions, AOOs, etc. once you've poofed. But if you had a move, a swift, etc. you wanted to take on that turn, then you needed to take it before dimension door, or you'd lose the opportunity.

Never actually stopped to think there would be another interpretation, as popping an ability that makes you all but stunned seems a waste of time, to me.

[Talonhawke]

True and honestly never thought about it myself until I was looking over this question. I would assume that DD would still allow your other list of actions but at the same time we do have feats to open the ability to act back up so I figured I would post the only possibly issue i saw.

[Java Man]

Since you could also ready an action to attack or cast an offensive spell to interupt the casting this sounds fine to me.

[Pink Dragon]

Attacks of Opportunity is a section described in the CRB on page 180 before the section on Actions in Combat. I would say that an AOO is not an action, and therefore what you describe is legitimate.

However, a 5-ft step is also a no action, so the sorcerer may be able to 5-ft step away after your character's dimension door to get out of range of the AOO.

[Mallecks]

Pink Dragon wrote:

Attacks of Opportunity is a section described in the CRB on page 180 before the section on Actions in Combat. I would say that an AOO is not an action, and therefore what you describe is legitimate.

However, a 5-ft step is also a no action, so the sorcerer may be able to 5-ft step away after your character's dimension door to get out of range of the AOO.

This. Also, it may be possible for the caster to cast defensively with new information of the shadow dancer standing behind them.

Although, I'm not sure exactly how much leeway there is in changing a triggering action when a readied actions happen.

[Cavall]

I don't know about that. Casting has begun. If he wants to stop it to move around that's fine. But shouldn't it then just be stopped?

I know you can 5 foot in the middle of full round actions but in the middle of a standard cast action to avoid an AoO which only triggers because of an action taking place?

That seems way more cheap than the shadow jump.

Unless what you're suggesting is they don't take the standard they wanted to, then move, then restart a new standard? That seems way off too.

[Mallecks]

Readied Action wrote:

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Take a 5ft Step wrote:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So, I stand corrected. You cannot suddenly decide to start casting defensively, you have to continue the action.

You can definitely take the 5-ft step though. Not as broken as it seemed. Are you a Whip Master Shadowdancer? =)

[pauljathome]

Neal Litherland wrote:

Never actually stopped to think there would be another interpretation, as popping an ability that makes you all but stunned seems a waste of time, to me.

Dimension Door is an INCREDIBLY USEFUL spell. "Taxi clerics" are power multipliers with the right group. The caster losing attacks of opportunity is a VERY small price to pay for getting the heavy hitters instantly into melee range.

In fact, off hand I can't think of a single example where the character who cast dimension door would even care :-).

Although I hadn't thought of it before, I now think that losing attacks of opportunity is a quite reasonable interpretation of the rules

[Revengeance]

RAW wrote:

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

You take your readied action "just before" the action that triggers it, so it seems you would indeed be threatening the square and capable of making an AoO. Additionally, I do not think the caster can switch to defensive casting at this point, because the action and its circumstances were already declared. You wouldn't allow the target to say "instead of casting, I choose a full attack in response to the DD", so you shouldn't let it change how it performs other actions and what bonuses or penalties apply to it. I'd also restrict the use of the 5-foot step, because the readied action "just before" its trigger and the AoO interrupts the turn.

Cute trick.

[Talonhawke]

pauljathome wrote:

Neal Litherland wrote:

Never actually stopped to think there would be another interpretation, as popping an ability that makes you all but stunned seems a waste of time, to me.

Dimension Door is an INCREDIBLY USEFUL spell. "Taxi clerics" are power multipliers with the right group. The caster losing attacks of opportunity is a VERY small price to pay for getting the heavy hitters instantly into melee range.

In fact, off hand I can't think of a single example where the character who cast dimension door would even care :-).

Although I hadn't thought of it before, I now think that losing attacks of opportunity is a quite reasonable interpretation of the rules

That's kinda where I was I never really thought about it since I had never really seen it come up.

[LordKailas]

An AoO is considered a "free action", which makes it less restrictive than a swift or immediate action.

Free Actions wrote:

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

While that may not directly answer the question, I tried to find a condition with similar wording to dimension door. I was able to find the following. I think either you should be allowed to make AoO in both situations or in neither. It doesn't make sense that one would allow AoO and the other wouldn't since they essentially say the same thing.

Dimension Door wrote:

After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

and then

Cowering wrote:

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions.

I would lean toward not getting an AoO in either case, since while it is a free action, it is still an action, as opposed to being classified as a "not an action".

Not an action wrote:

Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

So, you could teleport behind the person and they would provoke, but you just wouldn't be able to take advantage of the AoO unless you have a feat or ability that allows you to act after using Dim Door.

[djdust]

Shadow Jump is specifically NOT Dimension Door. You need the Flexible Shadow Jump Feat to be able to treat it as Dimension Door, meaning you need that feat first in order to take the Dimensional Agility Feat, which would allow you to take that AoO.

[Talonhawke]

Just because it doesn't qualify for taking a feat doesn't mean it doesn't abide by the rules for the spell. It still functions as DD it just doesn't mean the prereq for a feat.

[djdust]

just saying, if you want that AoO, you need those two feats.

[Talonhawke]

Well that goes back to what we were discussing on whether or not DD affected AoO or not.

[djdust]

without Dimensional Agility, no, you're stuck until your next turn.

with Dimensional Agility, AoO away!

But the OP is asking about Shadowjump, which simply just increases the feat tax.

Believe me, I'm not happy about it either.

[thaX]

Unlike the spells like Dimension Door, Shadow Jump does not disorient the Rogue as he uses the ability.

So Shadowjumping from a delayed action is feasible and the Rogue would be able to AoO the caster after doing so.

[merpius]

thaX wrote:

Unlike the spells like Dimension Door, Shadow Jump does not disorient the Rogue as he uses the ability.

So Shadowjumping from a delayed action is feasible and the Rogue would be able to AoO the caster after doing so.

The Shadow Jump ability specifically says that it is "as if by means of a dimension door spell" Certainly that seems to imply that you would still suffer the disorientation, sicne it doesn't specifically say that you do not.

[thaX]

I don't know if they changed the wording from 3.5 or not. This is a quandary, but I still feel that it should allow for the AoO, but now it depends on if it is an action or not.

[merpius]

For reference:

3.5 version (from d20srd)

Quote:

Shadow Jump (Su)

At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 20 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 20 feet or two jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.

pathfinder version (from d20pfsrd)

Quote:

Shadow Jump (Su)

At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.

[merpius]

Looks like they changed the startign distance, but no other changes. It always acted liked dimension door (except the noted differences).

[Neal Litherland]

Talonhawke wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

Neal Litherland wrote:

Never actually stopped to think there would be another interpretation, as popping an ability that makes you all but stunned seems a waste of time, to me.

Dimension Door is an INCREDIBLY USEFUL spell. "Taxi clerics" are power multipliers with the right group. The caster losing attacks of opportunity is a VERY small price to pay for getting the heavy hitters instantly into melee range.

In fact, off hand I can't think of a single example where the character who cast dimension door would even care :-).

Although I hadn't thought of it before, I now think that losing attacks of opportunity is a quite reasonable interpretation of the rules

That's kinda where I was I never really thought about it since I had never really seen it come up.

The problem is when you're NOT a caster, but have access to this ability (shadowdancers, monks, etc.). Especially if your job is not bampfing around the field as support, but being a melee monkey wrench.

EDIT: Additionally, the phrasing of Dimensional Agility suggests tat you only lose the rest of your turn, as the benefit is that you can take whatever actions you have remaining on your turn after using Dimension Door. The implication I read from that is it's only your abilities on your turn, and not your immediates and AOOs that you lose when you poof.

[merpius]

Quote:

EDIT: Additionally, the phrasing of Dimensional Agility suggests tat you only lose the rest of your turn, as the benefit is that you can take whatever actions you have remaining on your turn after using Dimension Door. The implication I read from that is it's only your abilities on your turn, and not your immediates and AOOs that you lose when you poof.

A less generous reading would indicate that Dimensional Agility only buys your back the remaining actions on your turn, but you still lose the ability to take any actions that are not on your turn. I'd call it a harsh reading indeed, but probably pure RAW, linguistically speaking. :(