Example:
Falcon form says, "Your shape changes to that of a Small falcon. While in this form, you gain a bite attack (1d4 damage), two claw attacks (1d3 damage), a fly speed of 60 feet (good), low-light vision, and a +4 racial bonus on vision-based Perception checks. At 8th level, you gain darkvision with a range of 120 feet, and your racial bonus on Perception checks increases to +6. At 15th level, you gain blindsense with a range of 60 feet and your fly speed increases to 90 feet (perfect)."
Wild Shape says:
"At 4th level, a shifter gains the ability to turn herself into the major form of one of her aspects and back again. This ability functions as beast shape II, except as noted here. The shifter can turn into the major form of only one of her aspects at a time. Using wild shape to change to a major form or back is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Often a particular aspect’s major form grants abilities beyond the normal effect of beast shape II. Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form and at what level; she gains these instead of the form abilities from beast shape II, but she still gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent."
There is a bit there about form abilities but that isn't applicable to my question. That deals with abilities that come after the bit that says, "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:..." It does not deal with natural attacks.
Beast Shape is a Polymorph spell. Polymorph subschool says, "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."
Falcon is based off Hawk. Hawk says, "Melee 2 talons +5 (1d4–2)"
Talons are very clearly different than claws. Deinonychus form really confuses this as it switches which ones get the Shifter's Claws bonus but otherwise this is fairly consistent in the rules. I actually feel that is why it needs to specify in the Deinonychus which gets the bonus as it is different than it would be in any other part of the game. However... this leaves it pretty unclear about the Falcon form. Do they get a Bite, 2 Claws and 2 Talons?
As I understand it, with shifters, you do exactly what the form says. You do not turn into a hawk; you turn into the shifter version of a falcon, making the alterations exactly as the form description states. I am no shifter expert, though. Bite, claw, claw, no talons, however weird this may seem.
Sorry, blahpers, I appreciate the help. But I'm asking for a rules based answer here. Is there developer input that supports your opinion? I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm just looking for clarity. If that is how it works what are you basing that on?
I found this FAQ entry but it still seems a bit unclear.
First of all the assumption that the question starts with isn't supported within the verbiage of the class. It says, "The shifter major forms are supposed to tell me everything I need aside from the size adjustments..." but that isn't said anywhere in the Shifter class that I can find. It says what I quoted above. It then goes on to say, "...but a few things seem to be missing, such as the owl’s fly speed and some of the natural attacks." which is what I am pointing out.
So then it goes on to say, "You still only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects (size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor). If the creature has no listed base land speed, use 30 feet as the base land speed. Here are the missing abilities:"
It says "You still..." as if this has been established somewhere in the rules for Shifter. It isn't. The rules for the class actually say the opposite.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative but things seem not just confusing but contradictory.
I think they're referring to this sentence from Wild Shape (Su):
Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form and at what level; she gains these instead of the form abilities from beast shape II, but she still gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent.
Granted, talons would be from the polymorph school rules, not beast shape II specifically, so that's still not entirely helpful. Best I could find.
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It's here:
Polymorph
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
--snip--
Beast shape 2 is a polymorph spell, so the above would apply.
blahpers: I figured they were referring to the form abilities listed in the Beast Shape spell after it says, "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:"
I mean, truly there is no knowing completely as there is nothing in Beast Shape called "form abilities" but that is the text that I think closes encompasses it.
tchrman35: Already quoted that in my original post. That is the confusing part. Especially if you take in what the FAQ I linked in my last post says.
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I did mention the issue in the Shifter changes thread months ago.
Yes, as written, you get the natural attacks of both the base form's bestiary entry, and the ones listed in the major form description. Of course, this is where common sense should kick in, as getting up to nine natural attacks on a dinosaur with only four limbs plus head and tail can't sound right to anyone. It's also not a new issue, as multiple polymorph spells do the same thing (Undead Anatomy line, Form of the Dragon line, and Ooze Form line).
What we would need is an FAQ that says "When using polymorph effects that list granted natural weapons, you do not gain the base creature's natural weapons."
You get what's listed on the form: a bite attack (1d4 damage), two claw attacks (1d3 damage), a fly speed of 60 feet (good), low-light vision, and a +4 racial bonus on vision-based Perception checks.
There's nothing unclear about it.
Indeed, there's nothing unclear about this - you get what you've said. And since you're using a polymorph effect, and the polymorph rules say "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature", you do just that - you gain the base creature's natural attacks in addition to anything else.
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Considering a Falcon only has 2 Feet, rule mongering aside, not how you get claw and talon attacks from the same appendage. Natural attacks are pretty clear in that you need to have the appendage to get the attack, no tail = no tail attack. Pretty sure most GMs would allow Claws or Talons if you have both options, 1d3 or 1d4 won't break a table, but allowing claws and talons would be like allowing Bite and Teeth attacks at the same time.
Rhaleroad: Deinonychus gets claw and talon attacks at the same time.
If I were depending on logic I would say a Deinonychus' claws get the shifter claws damage bonus and it's talons do not. But it is specifically opposite from that for some reason.
merpius: Yes. That is what RAW says. But what it doesn't say, as Derklord points out is, "When using polymorph effects that list granted natural weapons, you do not gain the base creature's natural weapons." It doesn't say that you ignore the rules for polymorph spells and spell like abilities. In fact, it says that you use them. It tells you what you ignore from them.
The FAQ doesn't really clear this up. The question states something that is untrue in the first sentence. Perhaps when the errata is printed in the rules it will clear this up. But the RAW combined with the FAQ still leaves things unclear. ... as evidenced by the varying opinions in this thread alone if nothing else.
This is also how form of the Dragon, Undead Anatomy, and Ooze Form work with respect to natural attacks. If the effect specifically tells you what natural attacks you get, I think it overrides the general polymorph rules that say you get all the target form's natural attacks.
But the rules as written are unclear and poorly written and could be read either way. To my knowledge Undead Anatomy also hasn't been FAQ'd despite there being many threads concerning confusion about what natural attacks you get, and that's from a much older book.
Based on context, it's quite clear what the intent is, and that's to override the natural attacks you get rather than add to them. Unless we're suggesting that a Shifter in Deinonychus major form is supposed to have 2 bites, 4 talons, and 4 foreclaws.
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Rhaleroad: Deinonychus gets claw and talon attacks at the same time.
Sure, but those use different limbs. A falcon's gonna have a hard time doing that.
@merpius
Unfortunately, most major forms do not specify what natural attacks you get, so the interpretation that the major form always only gives natural attacks it specifies seems undoubtedly wrong.
Examples: Bat, Bear, Monkey, Mouse, Snake, Stag, Wolverine. Many of them list abilities you get later with specific attacks, but don't specify you actually getting that attack (see bear for instance).
It seems that natural attacks are only specified when they need to be, either because special abilities like grab or trip need to be assigned to them, to limit the number of attacks you have at a lower level (deinonychus), or to (for whatever reason) change birds' talons to claws (falcon and owl). The last one is probably to allow usage of feats or abilties that require claws, since there is more content for a player to use with claws than with talons (And it looks like they based the falcon form off the eagle rather than the hawk for natural attacks by giving it a bite).
Unfortunately, most major forms do not specify what natural attacks you get, so the interpretation that the major form always only gives natural attacks it specifies seems undoubtedly wrong.
The attacks weren't omitted on purpose. What you are supposed to get that's missing is found in this FAQ, which has also been mentioned a few times in-thread.
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Er, it DOES say you ignore the rules for polymorph by saying: "only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects." By listing natural weapons in the listed abilities, they are being more specific, and therefore taking precidence over, the less specific polymorph rules.
The problem is that the polymorph rule talk about abilities (mostly called benefits), then the make a line break, and in the next paragraph, they say that in addition to those abilities, you also gain the natural attacks. It's extremely explicit that the natural attacks are not part of the abilities/"benefits" you gain, but seperate from those.
If the effect specifically tells you what natural attacks you get, I think it overrides the general polymorph rules that say you get all the target form's natural attacks.
To override a general rule, you'd need something more explicitly, at least when the general rule section in question starts with "In addition to these benefits".
Shifter's wildshape, the FAQ, and the three mentioned lines of polyorph spells all treat the natural attacks as part of the abilities/benefits explicitly granted in the spell description, when in reality, they are not.