I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne (my first time DMing) and the party, while oddly made, is a good one. Fun group, play and RP well together. I'm having trouble with one aspect, however, and that is one player who is playing an occultist. He's a bit of a power gamer, but nothing too bad, and it's a great character. However, I am becoming irritated by Mind Eye. Basically, he'll cast see invisibility on himself, then send the Mind Eye whizzing around the whole dungeon. Now, for many dungeons, this isn't a problem. Who cares if he knows room X has 3 ogres, and room y has 1 ogre and a cave troll, or whatever. But often, really cool dungeons go down as follows:
What's in room A? [I read description]
What's in room B? [I read description]
What's in room C? [I read description, he rolls knowledge check on monster inside]
It becomes tedious, and kind of deflating. Like, what's the point of an interesting dungeon if I just read 20 room descriptions, then the party picks what monsters it wants to fight first. No dramatic reveals, no cool entrances. I ruled that it's too large to go through a keyhole or under a reasonably well-made door, which has helped, but some dungeons don't really work with slapping doors every 10 feet.
He's not breaking any rules, not at all. And he's certainly not being malicious. It's just becoming way less fun for me as a DM. It begins to feel like I'm just providing a list of monsters to fight at the beginning of each session. Or else I'm feeling really scummy and railroady by wanting to put shriekers everywhere, or giving every monster see invisibility.
I'm running into the same problem, but I've made an agreement with my player. He'll only scout one room ahead, encounter whatever is in there, and then he scouts ahead more. For me it's probably a little easier, as I'm running Wrath of the Righteous, and I've threatened people with See Invisibility before. Basically, if enemies notice the sensor, they can prepare for the party. As I've said, I'm running Wrath of the Righteous, and a lot of demons have See Invisibility, but you can probably do something similar. This way, my party can only scout two or three rooms at a time before it expires, and I think that's a pretty fair deal for one focus point.
Personally, I'd have a talk with the player, or perhaps with the entire group and say what's on your mind. They'll probably understand. My players have picked powers that seemed cool and were later shocked at how effective they were before. Taking the fun out of the game, on either side of the screen, is a real possibility, and clear communication can solve that very easily.
That's good advice. I did mention it to the group, and they've been understanding before. I'm thinking about limiting the range, maybe 60-100ft instead of the ONE MILE they get as written. I'm fine with him scouting a room at a time, just not scouting an entire dungeon. The same player has been very gracious and flexible about the "detect psychic significance" power as well, so I think we'll be able to work something out.
Just be careful, because that's, ya know, the whole point of that power. Occultists need prep more then other classes, so reduced scouting could hit harder than you'd think.
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1. The sensor is noticeable per the rules for scrying sensors in the Magic chapter (DC 22 Perception check, which is not terribly difficult). Sending the mind's eye through the entire dungeon may be foolish, as it only takes one bad guy to notice the thing and alert everybody else.
2. The sensor can be destroyed somewhat easily once noticed, assuming the enemy has any sort of magic to bring to bear. It can also be dispelled.
3. The sensor is not incorporeal. It can't pass through solid walls or closed doors unless there's a gap to pass through. (Fine is pretty small, so it doesn't have to be much of a gap.)
That being said, it's a nice ability that should work the way it is supposed to. But it's not much different from sending the rogue ahead with a couple of low-level spells to aid in mobility and lower discovery chance. (In fact, an invisible rogue is probably less likely to be seen than the sensor!) Point being, the ability doesn't create any problem that you wouldn't have to solve anyway with more common abilities.
Huh, I thought the thing was more difficult to spot, but DC 22 is pretty easy at the level I'm playing at. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Yeah, I need to be making more perception rolls, I also didn't realize the DC was that low. Also, I agree that a sneaky/invisible rogue is generally even more effective, but it also means putting that rogue at risk of traps, being noticed, a bad stealth roll, etc. If the sensor is destroyed, all that's been lost is one point of focus (though the enemies are alerted). But the point is well taken. I certainly don't want to nerf his abilities; he's built himself as an almost entirely support character, which fits the occultist, and taking away or nerfing support powers is obviously a direct attack on his role.
Yeah, start having the creatures of the dungeon making their perception check. And respond to the presence of a scrying. Have them retreat to gang up with other creatures, or move into other room so that it's not effective to actually know how many creatures are present unless they do it right before.
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Blahpers is absolutely right about magical sensors being noticeable despite being invisible. I guess they just give off a greater sense of 'being watched' or something that alerts nearby creatures. It doesn't necessarily make the sensor targetable, just putting them on alert and some creatures with Spellcraft might guess what's happening and take steps to dispel it or see it.
You can also put a few things that are dangerous to see. Like a room full of medusa or basilisks. He'd have to see their eyes, so if their back is turned he'd be safe, but in general, if he gets within 30 feet, it's assumed you have a view of the eyes and are vulnerable (and medusae look like normal woman until within 30 feet unless they obviously have their snake hair out). He can't even choose to avert his eyes or close them while using the sensor and it would even work if he were actually blind.
That would be a pretty fun scene, the party sitting around, twiddling their thumbs like always and just staring at the occulist:
Occultist: "Some kind of bath chamber. Kind of steamy. Woman in a robe and head towel climbing out of the ..." *stoned!*
Party: "Wha..?!"
A cursed text would also count as being read. Symbols and such won't likely work, because they have an effective spell range (unless it triggered off reading and dealt magical damage which would hit the eye), but curses that trigger from cursed scrolls or text should apply no matter where the reader actually is (barring some specific curse explanation).
Also, any magical damage will destroy the mind's eye, so even a simple AoE into the eye's area by a reasonably paranoid viewee might hit it, even if they can't see it specifically. I mean, be fair if there's a random chance they fire in the area, and obviously no burning hands if they're in their library. But even simple fields or traps made to 'screen' vermin like rats and roaches from coming in doors or a room that deals 1 measly magical damage will fry the eye.
Oh man, a medusa would be an amazing thing to throw in at the right time... I'll definitely keep that in mind
Just a note, the Mind's Eye is harder to spot than what people here are suggesting. Even if you don't roll for Stealth on this thing...
It's naturally invisible (+20)
It's Fine (+16)
Which means that if you aren't trying to keep it hidden and the opposition can't detect invisibility, you are looking at a DC 36 check. There's room for interpretation as to what you can do with a standard action "direction," so you if the GM allows the player to actively seek hiding with the sensor you can end up with a REALLY high DC.
IMO, verbal contract with the player is the better approach for this.
The fine size modifier only applies to stealth. Nothing in the rules says that a sensor can use stealth, so I would go with the scrying rules DC22.
Moridus wrote: Just a note, the Mind's Eye is harder to spot than what people here are suggesting. Even if you don't roll for Stealth on this thing...
It's naturally invisible (+20)
It's Fine (+16)
Which means that if you aren't trying to keep it hidden and the opposition can't detect invisibility, you are looking at a DC 36 check. There's room for interpretation as to what you can do with a standard action "direction," so you if the GM allows the player to actively seek hiding with the sensor you can end up with a REALLY high DC.
IMO, verbal contract with the player is the better approach for this.
Scrying sensors have a specific perception DC that overrides the general rules for invisibility or size--DC 20 + spell level. Mind's Eye comes online at occultist 5, making it an effective spell level of 2nd, so the DC is 22.
The sensor cannot make Stealth checks or otherwise take actions. All it can do is be moved by its controller.
DavrosLives wrote: Oh man, a medusa would be an amazing thing to throw in at the right time... I'll definitely keep that in mind A captive or bathing nymph also works well. He won't even realize he's blind until he stops using the eye (since it works even if the user is blind).
Damn shame they've nerfed nymphs terribly in 3.X. Originally, you'd die if you saw them naked or they disrobed.
"You know I've... never enjoyed making a save quite this much before."
—Yeagar the Mighty and Artax; Nodwick comic strip
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