Why is there so much stuff, for a skill that doesn't exist, and what does exist of it seemingly does nothing?
Every gear kit comes with an Iron Pot, which holds enough food for one meal. Kay, how does one make a meal? What does one make a meal? What does a meal do that a trail ration doesn't?
There's a whole cooking kit with a skillet, skewer, the whole nine yards. A teapot that makes tea for four. But no function for it. A party runs just as fine on survival checks and trail rations, and you don't need anything for that. In city you have meals of varying quality that functionally do nothing.
I get many tables don't want to waste time roleplaying the small stuff (many tables I've been on don't even acknowledge cost of living) but it feels like there's a lot of fluff behind this and really no substance with it. The closest to use it serves is starvation and dehydration rules, and the "racial" trail rations that give unique bonuses if you're of race x and eat them for a week.
Presumably, Craft (food) or (meals) would be used to crafting rules, save time and money prepping your own rations. Profession (cook) or (chef) is making a living cooking, but those are mundane everyday uses of those skills.
Food feels like it should make a difference. Even something like "eating a fine meal grants a +1 morale boost to your next fortitude save. This bonus disappears after 24 hours." Am I missing something somewhere that makes all these items worth something? Or are they encumbering fluff?
Actually cooking is a professional skill and does exist in pathfinder.
Actually cooking is a professional skill and does exist in pathfinder.
Yes. I'm more elaborating on the fact it doesn't do anything. Even compared to other professions and crafts like say Blacksmithing. My profession (gambler) would serve the same function as profession (cook). And it doesn't explain the dozen items without purpose.
What doesn't have a purpose? You've named a whole bunch of stuff that has a purpose. Calling it "fluff" is on you, not the rules.
I'd like to solve the puzzle: "DELAYED BLAST FIREBALL"
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Cooking has a use in pathfinder I allow cooking as both a craft and a profession in my game. Why? Because when you are in a dungeon for 2 weeks, have no more Trail rations, 200 miles from the nearest civilization them dire rats you just killed look awfully appetizing.
It adds a nice little bit of fluff to the characters. Survival to harvest usable parts and meat from that dead mantis Profession/Craft Cooking to cook it up if you roll low its a poor fare if you roll high its an exquisite feast.
If no one in the party has a cooking pot or a tent then survival rolls to gather food or to deal with adverse weather are going to be harder. If you don't care about those things because you have the magic to deal with them, or if the game's set in a city - fine, leave those out. No big deal.
I think what the OP is complaining about is there not being rules for cooking. Somethings are so self-evident that they do not need rules. Pathfinder is complex enough without adding in rules for things like eating drinking and going to the bathroom.
If you don’t understand the difference between trail rations and a real meal I really feel sorry for you. Most people get bored eating the same meal every day. Imagine how much worse it will be if your meal is dried jerky and moldy bread. Call it fluff if you will but unless you have some sort of compulsive disorder most people are going to want more than trail rations whenever they can.
In reality having cooking gear is going to often be less encumbering than relying on trail rations. One day’s worth of trail rations weigh a pound. An Iron pot weighs 4 pounds and a cooking kit weighs 16 pounds. Survival allows you to forage for food and water so you do not need to carry it with you. If you are traveling more than about two weeks a cooking kit will be less encumbering than trail rations. A trip of six months would mean you need to carry 180 pounds of food with you. Unless you have a 20 STR chance are you are not going to be able to carry that much.
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I think what the OP is complaining about is there not being rules for cooking. Somethings are so self-evident that they do not need rules. Pathfinder is complex enough without adding in rules for things like eating drinking and going to the bathroom.
If you don’t understand the difference between trail rations and a real meal I really feel sorry for you. Most people get bored eating the same meal every day. Imagine how much worse it will be if your meal is dried jerky and moldy bread. Call it fluff if you will but unless you have some sort of compulsive disorder most people are going to want more than trail rations whenever they can.
In reality having cooking gear is going to often be less encumbering than relying on trail rations. One day’s worth of trail rations weigh a pound. An Iron pot weighs 4 pounds and a cooking kit weighs 16 pounds. Survival allows you to forage for food and water so you do not need to carry it with you. If you are traveling more than about two weeks a cooking kit will be less encumbering than trail rations. A trip of six months would mean you need to carry 180 pounds of food with you. Unless you have a 20 STR chance are you are not going to be able to carry that much.
I think its a bit less that they are complaining about a lack of rules as it is they haven't really met a Gm/Dm that is on the fly enough to actually use some of the rules in the game.
Cooking has rules in the same sense as Artist has rules its just in the general rules and not the actual set in stone "yeah this is cooking rules".
looking at climb for example
DC Example Surface or Activity
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.
5 A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell.
10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging.
15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon.
21 A typical buildings upper-story wall
25 A typical buildings lower-story wall
25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
30 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds, or a typical city wall
— A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed.
So if we turn that to cooking its now
DC Example fare or technique
0 Bits and pieces of an animal or creature not fit enough to feed a mouse and hardly satisfying.
5 A Meager fare, probably mostly burnt and just barely edible.
10 A common fare, The type of things you'd see thrown together like a trail stew.
15 A fine fare from a new cook, Relatively easy to make but otherwise uneventful
20 Resturant level Fare, Such a meal is hearty and filling something you'd probably find regularly in a good tavern or market.
21 A Two star meal, Filling satisfying and usually marginally expensive the type of fare that you would eat with a commander or high level knight.
25 A Four star meal, Satisfying and exotic, this fare is something that you would eat with a minor noble and is expensive.
30 A Five star meal, The type of fare people equate to the gods. Supple and filling this fare has meats that melt in your mouth and seasoned sides that bring you to a rapturous world. Expensive and only made by the top chefs in the world a delicacy that one rarely sees in their life.
— Charred and inedible fare, Would not be filling in the slightest.
I think what the OP is complaining about is there not being rules for cooking. Somethings are so self-evident that they do not need rules. Pathfinder is complex enough without adding in rules for things like eating drinking and going to the bathroom.
If you don’t understand the difference between trail rations and a real meal I really feel sorry for you. Most people get bored eating the same meal every day. Imagine how much worse it will be if your meal is dried jerky and moldy bread. Call it fluff if you will but unless you have some sort of compulsive disorder most people are going to want more than trail rations whenever they can.
I'm not trying to imply added complexity needed, or rules. What I'm more saying is, as others have pointed out prior, finding and preparing a day's food and water is a DC 10 survival check that can be done untrained, so unless you're rocking a penalty, it's not even a thought. It also doesn't require tools.
I like the concept of a cook character, I want to play one some time soon. However, skimming Ultimate Equipment, there is an entire section devoted to food, with expiration dates and prices etc. Yet you look at getting a meal and this is it:
The listed price is for a day's worth of meals. Poor meals might consist of bread, baked turnips, onions, and water. Common meals might consist of bread, chicken stew, carrots, and watered-down ale or wine. Good meals might consist of bread and pastries, beef, peas, and ale or wine.
There are only 2* (counting the various ratial rations as 1 thing for simplicity) foodstuffs that have any impact. Racial Rations and the Wandermeal. The same thing applies to inn stays and suites. There's this big variance in cost for no difference. I bought a character a mask and wig for a costume that also serves no function but I wanted a pinch of realism. I like fluff, but I also feel like food should be more than flavour. Good food can really brighten a dreary day, that seems to be the intent of the racial rations, but there's nothing there for enjoying a good meal.
You really do not want rules for cooking. If Paizo makes them it will take 3 feats just to make breakfast (Lunch and dinner require additional feats.)
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Well if you want to go into detail you could give it some unchained stuff too. Like so.
5 ranks: You have an intimate knowledge of natural spices and flavours and have learned to make adequite fare on the fly. Double the silver earned for a cooking check.
10 ranks: Your expertise with the laddle and skillet have grown to where you never make a paltry fare any longer. +1 morale bonus to a single skill check, save, attack roll, ability check today.
15 ranks: Your expertise is famous and you have been called to more than a few large feasts. Treat any checks as double the time spent and silver earned. Stacks with 5 ranks. Can now add morale bonus to 2 checks in a day.
20 ranks: Your skill is legendary. You have cooked for kings and divine beings alike. You know how to turn a few ingrediants into a feast fit for Royalty. Gain the ability to treat your meals made as a hero's feast as the spell for the day.
20 ranks: Your skill is legendary. You have cooked for kings and divine beings alike. You know how to turn a few ingrediants into a feast fit for kings. Gain the ability to treat your meals made as a heros feast as the spell for the day.
See, that's what I'm talking about.
You bring forth a great feast, including a magnificent table, chairs, service, and food and drink. The feast takes 1 hour to consume, and the beneficial effects do not set in until this hour is over. Every creature partaking of the feast is cured of all sickness and nausea, receives the benefits of both neutralize poison and remove disease, and gains 1d8 temporary hit points + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10) after imbibing the nectar-like beverage that is part of the feast. The ambrosial food grants each creature that partakes a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and Will saves and a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against poison and fear effects for 12 hours.
If the feast is interrupted for any reason, the spell is ruined and all effects of the spell are negated.
I'm not saying every meal be Hero's Feast, but I'd love to see the benefits of a good meal, rather than just a handful of silver.
Yeah I was thinking of treating it like 1/day since normally you do Trail rations /day that means this meal you made acts as a Hero's Feast. That would last for about 12 hours for that day. As any other type of check you could choose not to make it a hero's feast but it just gives that option
Well if it is a key part of your character drop a signature skill feat on it after talking with your gm and see if they'll use the homebrew idea I gave :D they might edit it to work out better I was erroring on the side of weaker for mine.
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There's already a cookbook for food that gives you in-game benefits
That is an idea but not a lot of Gms actually allow 3pp in their games so that solution might not be allowed in a lot of games. A good source though :D
for Monk's is there a Kung Pow recipe? ;^)
20 ranks: Your skill is legendary. You have cooked for kings and divine beings alike. You know how to turn a few ingrediants into a feast fit for kings. Gain the ability to treat your meals made as a heros feast as the spell for the day.See, that's what I'm talking about.
I'm not saying every meal be Hero's Feast, but I'd love to see the benefits of a good meal, rather than just a handful of silver.You bring forth a great feast, including a magnificent table, chairs, service, and food and drink. The feast takes 1 hour to consume, and the beneficial effects do not set in until this hour is over. Every creature partaking of the feast is cured of all sickness and nausea, receives the benefits of both neutralize poison and remove disease, and gains 1d8 temporary hit points + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10) after imbibing the nectar-like beverage that is part of the feast. The ambrosial food grants each creature that partakes a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and Will saves and a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against poison and fear effects for 12 hours.
If the feast is interrupted for any reason, the spell is ruined and all effects of the spell are negated.
So, basically, you want mundane cooking to have codified, number-based mechanical advantages on par with magical effects. Am I understanding correctly?
Also you can take a look at Dreamscarred press's April Augmented 2018 and the Flavour Handbook from Duck and roll games, for some more 3PP cooking goodness.
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Without any sort of concerted effort, every game I've run or played in the last five years has had one character with "Profession: Cook." More recent games have used Background Skills, but even without that it's an appealing option.
For role-playing, we've had many scenes where the party sits about the fire eating a meal prepared with whatever the druid/barbarian/ranger dragged in. Eating is communal in real life, so it's a nice analogue for communal moments in the game.
Mechanically, and especially in a hex-crawl game I ran or similar travelogue moments, I do try to find small ways to reward players who take the in-game time to prepare a nice meal. It's nothing huge, but usually something equivalent to making that night's rest count for double, relieving exhaustion or fatigue, or maybe mitigating a status ailment.
I like the idea of potential benefits for eating more fantastical fare.
So, basically, you want mundane cooking to have codified, number-based mechanical advantages on par with magical effects. Am I understanding correctly?......
Not on par with magic. On par with the racial rations at least though. Or as Brother Willi just mentioned above, maybe have it contribute to rest or downtime. I'd also like to see benefits for a good night's rest in a luxurious soft bed mean more than sleeping on a bedroll on the street.
Alchemists, Potion brewers, Witches, and Hedge magicians seem to have the most in game use for this Craft or Profession Skill.
Labels might read, "Artisan Crafted Love Potion #9, ... all unnatural ingredients"...
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This really does just boil down into "Why can't I play real life simulator in my game about unrealistically delving into dungeons and killing dragons?"
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This really does just boil down into "Why can't I play real life simulator in my game about unrealistically delving into dungeons and killing dragons?"I think the bigger issue from the OP (I get it's a six year old thread), is why did the game devs bother to list numerous types of food and meals, bedding, lodging, amenities, etc., all at different prices, and then not have any mechanical differences whatsoever. By comparison, every weapon, alchemical ingredient, spell component, crafting tool, and most clothing has some kind of mechanical difference. It seems like a lot of effort put into an idea that was left half finished. We don't need rules for the difference between eating an apple or a pear, but a good meal versus a poor meal implies that it should have a difference in effect, and not just on your pocketbook.
I'm fine with flavor and fluff. Leaving this to GM call is fine, but it feels like a situation where the rules should actively encourage a circumstance bonus. If you don't have the appropriate gear, cooking and survival should be more difficult skill checks. And, I'm pretty sure there are some rules for adjusting survival DCs based on terrain. Generally a forest should be more bountiful than a desert. Depending on what's available to scrounge, not everything can be safely eaten raw or roasted on a stick.
I think it is simply porting over some stuff that existed in previous versions of the game.
AD&D 1st edition had a list of diseases and a monthly check (plus one in several circumstances, like fighting an Otyugh) to see if the PCs did catch something.Your standard of living did modify that check.
Later editions removed it as few people bothered with it.
Your standard of living affects some things, like natural recovery from a disease or wounds. You can't have intensive care if your standard of living is destitute, but detailed prices for single items have little impact.
This really does just boil down into "Why can't I play real life simulator in my game about unrealistically delving into dungeons and killing dragons?"I think the bigger issue from the OP (I get it's a six year old thread), is why did the game devs bother to list numerous types of food and meals, bedding, lodging, amenities, etc., all at different prices, and then not have any mechanical differences whatsoever. By comparison, every weapon, alchemical ingredient, spell component, crafting tool, and most clothing has some kind of mechanical difference. It seems like a lot of effort put into an idea that was left half finished. We don't need rules for the difference between eating an apple or a pear, but a good meal versus a poor meal implies that it should have a difference in effect, and not just on your pocketbook.
I'm fine with flavor and fluff. Leaving this to GM call is fine, but it feels like a situation where the rules should actively encourage a circumstance bonus. If you don't have the appropriate gear, cooking and survival should be more difficult skill checks. And, I'm pretty sure there are some rules for adjusting survival DCs based on terrain. Generally a forest should be more bountiful than a desert. Depending on what's available to scrounge, not everything can be safely eaten raw or roasted on a stick.
My response was to the newest thread necromancy, whose complaints were more around not having what would be ultimately unnecessary at best if not power-creep baiting rules. Your point on the other hand is not something I was contesting. Even at a basic level, being able to quantify the cost of living in a game/setting is massively important to grounding that setting. Look at DnD 5e where gold is literally meaningless because you don't know the cost of a loaf of bread, let alone if its stale, fresh, or some other higher level of quality. Is magic so rare/expensive that a peasant on the street could never afford a single use from a wand of cure light wounds if he's injured or is magic so cheap and plentiful that many mundanities of medieval life are nonexistant as if there was modern technology but "magik"?
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Mmmm. I’m right now imagining a bowl of reefclaw bouillabaisse or maybe cockatrice with a Chelaxian tarragon sauce — true demon’s blood in it, not that daemon substitute people are raving about.
You know, I’m so rich from these monstrosities of gastronomy, my neighbors from Geb might even want to have me over for dinner sometime.
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To the point tho, easiest homebrew reskin I can think of would either be an infusion based Alchemist where the GM allows either off list extracts based on the monster foodstuff used or the bard archetype that serves tea, but maybe with different stipulations or effects on scale with masterpiece performances, also based off of the current plattes d’jour.
Check out Spheres of Guile. I believe that there is something there under the Herbalism Spheres. Samurai Sheepdog also has the Culinarian class. It's on Pfd20 if you want to give it a look.