Animate Dead vs Attic Whisperer

[TheChozyn]

Epic Facebook argument ensued, so I'm coming to the source.

Caster has undead minion created from animate dead.

Caster gets touched by Attic whisperer and fails save, voice gone for an hour.

Attic whisperer mimics casters voice per its ability and commands undead minion.

What happens?

A: Does undead ignore fake voice and carries out last command to the best of is ability.

Or

B: gets sense motive vs Attic whisperers bluff, and if it fails, follows whisperers command to the best of its ability.

[Pizza Lord]

A.
There is more to the connection between the creator and the dead than just their voice (though they do have to give verbal commands*). This means a creator polymorphed into another form (that can talk) or in disguise will still be obeyed if the undead hears the command.

*:

Having said that, I do think it is possible to command them with other methods, like telepathy (assuming it works on mindless undead), if you have a way to directly communicate with them, it's just pointed out that way to indicate that there's no mental connection otherwise provided by animate dead. Or you could otherwise 'pre-load' a spoken command based on a non-spoken stimulus, like "If I point left open that door".

The attic whisperer may sound like the creator but has no power to give the undead new commands unless the creator had given a command that would allow that loophole, ie. "Come into the room when I call," or "Attack if you hear me say 'schnoogins'". In which case there would likely be a check to determine the degree of successful mimicry, but you're right that most mindless undead wouldn't be hard to fool.

[VRMH]

Pizza Lord wrote:

There is more to the connection between the creator and the dead than just their voice

Is there? I mean it makes sense, but I haven't seen any indication of this in the rules.

[Red Spirit]

VRMH wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

There is more to the connection between the creator and the dead than just their voice

Is there? I mean it makes sense, but I haven't seen any indication of this in the rules.

I would recommend rereading the animate dead spell, because the indication that this is a part of the rules is in the first sentence.

"This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey *your* spoken commands."

Who's spoken commands do the undead or zombies follow? The casters. What about a voice that sounds like a casters?

Well is that voice that sounds like the casters the caster? If yes, then the skeleton obeys according to the spell, if not, then no, the spell only indicates the undead follow one persons spoken commands -- the casters.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

B!

The rules don't have an explicit stance on the issue, so default to Rule of Cool.

Having an attic whisperer steal your voice to control your zombies is definitely the cooler option.

[Isaac Zephyr]

Looking through everything as I've been trying tge past few days, I'd rule it as follows.

Intelligent undead would not believe such a ruse, the only intelligent undead you can make with animate is an Isitoq, and it's connection to their creator would make such a thing debatable.

For unintelligent undead, it's written they don't actually understand language, but they understand commands from their master. This means, though verbal commands are required, they're not dependent. The undead has a connection such that it understands the intent of their master, moreso than the words being said. I would say someone mimicking the master's voice would do nothing, because the connection is not there. They don't understand the voice, they understand the master only.

[Diego Rossi]

"Rule of Cool" generally is a very bad way to adjudicate rules, as what is cool for a person is a load of tripe for another.

If we look Animate dead there is a very telling piece of information: "No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."

What matter is the caster level of the caster, not if he has a sore throat or is a trained orator. So the ability to mimic the caster voice is no relevant for the animated undead, as what matter is the control of the spell that animated them.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Diego Rossi wrote:

"Rule of Cool" generally is a very bad way to adjudicate rules, as what is cool for a person is a load of tripe for another.

If we look Animate dead there is a very telling piece of information: "No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."

What matter is the caster level of the caster, not if he has a sore throat or is a trained orator. So the ability to mimic the caster voice is no relevant for the animated undead, as what matter is the control of the spell that animated them.

I've been using it for years, and have had no issues.

Sticking to a strict legalistic reading of the rules is no guarantee that your players won't think it's a load of tripe either. If you run the risk either way, why not pick the cooler option?

Of course, you should also try to develop a sense of your players' tastes. :)

The CL/HD rule only shows that there is a limit to how many created undead will respond to your spoken commands. It doesn't prove anything regarding the subject of mimicry.

[Pizza Lord]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The rules don't have an explicit stance on the issue, so default to Rule of Cool.

...
I've been using it for years, and have had no issues.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with being cool, but basing rules and interpretations on that criteria isn't going to help adjudicate (certainly it's fair advice in a pinch, for someone seeking Advice on running the scene, rather than on adjudicating it in the Rules forum).

Quote:

Sticking to a strict legalistic reading of the rules is no guarantee that your players won't think it's a load of tripe either. If you run the risk either way, why not pick the cooler option?

The main reason for most GMs is that they would prefer to be fair, unbiased, and arbitrate in a way that reinforces the shared setting, the rules, and how it works for everyone (being cool is a bonus, certainly).

Using mimickry to trick a created undead could be cool if the situation or plot set up a scenario where a player could come up with the idea of mimicking the creator as an organic extension of the scene. For instance, the creator has them at his mercy and orders his zombie servant into the room, it stumbles into something, setting the creator into a tirade (which the zombie clearly doesn't care about, but it's all for the creator's ego). The creator berates the zombie for never getting anything right and then ends with, 'Just hold that rope until you hear me say otherwise!" and leaves the room.

At that point, it would be cool for a PC to throw their voice, use some ventriliquism, or make a Perform or Bluff check, and have the zombie let go of the rope because they sound like the creator issuing a pre-arranged signal (rather than a command), based on the parameters laid out by the creator's own careless commands to a mindless underling.

It's not so cool to make sounding like the creator the sole criteria for being considered a created undead's master and controller or to allow the control or negation of a whole situation using a premise along the lines of 'Undead follow the spoken command of their creators, ergo, they obey the commands of anyone they think sounds like their creator'. At that point, you've got NPCs holding up sock puppets with monocles and making horrible Bluff checks (which the mindless undead fail likely), and now they've not only negated any control the PC would have over their created dead, but now have all the powers of the creator without any such scenario or indication that such a thing is permissible (ie. something that actually says it does that, like control undead or command undead) or even having a limit on the amount of undead they can control. The twin brother or sister of a creator will not be obeyed by animated dead any more than anyone else unless the creator instructs the undead to obey them.

Quote:

Of course, you should also try to develop a sense of your players' tastes. :)

Yep, but there comes a point where their tastes for magical ponies, shooting baskets on the court from the same place as the last guy who made a shot, and LARP logically lead you to a point where their tastes are for a slightly different game, not just a slightly tweaked arbitration.

For instance, it might sound totally cool if your PCs suddenly said
Players: "Wait! Let's create a spell that lets us just take control of created undead and stuff!"
GM:"You mean like command undead?"
Players: "Yeah, but none of us can cast that... and none of us are spellcasters either... So yeah, command undead would be totally cool right now! So we should be able to do it!"
GM: "You got it! It would be cool if you all could cast spells like wizards! You do it! Also, since I'm allowing it, I'm not even gonna require a skill check or give a saving throw, since that would be a total bummer if we were to go to all this absurdity and then have it just not work now!"
Players: "Yay! Also, it would be cool if we turned into dragons or... giant robots that transform into cars!"

There comes a point where you have to say... it might be cool to allow a lot of things, but that's not really the basis for interpreting the rules, in the Rules forum.
:) <----- smiley face.

[Diego Rossi]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

"Rule of Cool" generally is a very bad way to adjudicate rules, as what is cool for a person is a load of tripe for another.

If we look Animate dead there is a very telling piece of information: "No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."

What matter is the caster level of the caster, not if he has a sore throat or is a trained orator. So the ability to mimic the caster voice is no relevant for the animated undead, as what matter is the control of the spell that animated them.

I've been using it for years, and have had no issues.

Sticking to a strict legalistic reading of the rules is no guarantee that your players won't think it's a load of tripe either. If you run the risk either way, why not pick the cooler option?

Of course, you should also try to develop a sense of your players' tastes. :)

The CL/HD rule only shows that there is a limit to how many created undead will respond to your spoken commands. It doesn't prove anything regarding the subject of mimicry.

Exactly because "you should also try to develop a sense of your players' tastes." That is fine in a home game where you always play with the same people, not when you are responding to a rule question in a international forum or when playing at a convention or public game.

I think we are all using home rules in our home games but here we are speaking of the shared rules.

[Bloodrealm]

The caster has magical control over the created undead via the effects of the spell. Someone sounding like them will not work. This is why spells and abilities that allow control over undead that you didn't create yourself have sections describing how you wrest control of ones under someone else's control.
An interesting way to alter this idea would be the Attic Whisperer assume that it can direct the undead minion in this way, maybe even trying to lure it to be a new friend, but become irritated when it doesn't work. The default Attic Whisperer stat block doesn't have ranks in Knowledge(Arcana) nor in Knowledge(Religion), which is used it matters relating to undead, so it probably wouldn't know any better.