Caster-Martial Disparity in 2e


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bookrat wrote:

By narrative power, I mean that PCs have the ability to control the narrative and make meaningful decisions in game that actually impacts the story.

Typically, the strongest narrative power comes from spells and skills.

You don't need class abilities or magic for this.

All you need is a table willing to roleplay instead of rollplay and a few social skills that any character of any class can pick up with a light to moderate investment.


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Volkard Abendroth wrote:
bookrat wrote:

By narrative power, I mean that PCs have the ability to control the narrative and make meaningful decisions in game that actually impacts the story.

Typically, the strongest narrative power comes from spells and skills.

You don't need class abilities or magic for this.

All you need is a table willing to roleplay instead of rollplay and a few social skills that any character of any class can pick up with a light to moderate investment.

Makes you wonder why there have to be so many spells that let you engage socially with people, doesn't it.

Oops, wrong thread, this relates to the Rogue preview: Maybe the poster above you could get their wish for more options by cutting out those unnecessary spells instead of most of the Exploration rules.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So I love the wizard. My favorite character I have ever played is a diviner that played through the Carrion Crown AP with a DM that was up to the challenge and wanting to play his BBEG (which he completely rewrote) very intelligently and the entire 6th book became a very elaborate game of cat and mouse/chess match between the BBEG and my Wizard. The Paladin and the Cleric in the party never felt left out, and in the end it was a trip combat maneuver that won the day, but the vast majority of that last book was trying to figure out where enemy positions were, get a good scry in of the locations and jump in super buffed and ready to decimate an unprepared enemy.

This was a very satisfying way to play a fantasy roleplaying game. It was also incredibly draining for everyone because our 3 member party of 16 level heroes was almost always teetering between getting TPK'd and beating our foes in one or two rounds. Buffs had to be tracked down to the round for much of the campaign because enemies can teleport in at any moment too and it worked very well for a high stakes, high-intensity horror campaign. It took us 6 years to play through this campaign. Plot-wise, there was a lot of fun wrap up stuff that we all wanted to do, but campaign fatigue set in and we were all ready to be done with high level pathfinder for a very long time. 15 Minute turns lead to combat rounds that take 2 hours to play through and even with tons of digital resource management, every action needed to be checked by the player and the DM to make sure every bonus was correct. If even one little element of a single spell out of 20 in play (like casting time) was misread, it was the difference between total defeat in seconds, or victory.

It has also made every party since decide that it cannot get by without at least one full caster in the party. Because there is nothing in the game that can be done with skills that cannot be done with spells and with a flexible caster like a wizard, druid or cleric (or all three), there is almost always a spell option that is only a day away.

As much as I love pathfinder. I want:

to be able to play high level characters and not have a combat round take 2 to 3 hours to play out.

the option for high level wizard games of cat and mouse to be interesting and fun, and not the only obvious conclusion for any high level campaign.

spell stacking to be a poor tactical choice (because it slows the game down and complicates game play) rather than nearly the only practical choice. (I think this can be done relatively easily. If magic items can be limited in how they interact with each other and how many can be in play for a character at once, then spells should work the same way.)

AND I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to see is 1. streamlined language for the way spells work. Mechanical clarity must surpass fluff text in all spell descriptions. Let the players and DM describe their spells knowing how they work. 2. Something like what came out with Ultimate intrigue released from the beginning in a Dungeonmaster's Guide about how to handle different kinds of magic in your campaign and how to explain what role you, as DM, want magic to play in your campaign to your players.

PS. Please dont shut down whole schools of magic. Let individual DMs decide for themselves what level they are comfortable running magic in their game and help them establish those expectations for their players.


^^^^^


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Nathanael Love wrote:

Narrative power is short hand for bad GM.

Anyone who complains that Wizards have too much or fighters too little is really just saying "I fundamentally don't understand this game and my opinions are of no value."

The only response this deserves is a "no u". I'll go one better and say you don't understand games period, let alone this one. And again, the very idea of a hypothetical PF2E (let alone one in which the Wizard might be reined in, or in your revealing words, "taken away") sent you into hysterics. Of what value is your opinion, then?

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