Can you explain me "poor visibility" plz

[tiarakia]

Hi,
I would like to know What does mean " poor visibility"
I'va finden the rule on hampered movement

Table: Hampered Movement
Condition Additional Movement Cost
Difficult terrain ×2
Obstacle* ×2
Poor visibility ×2
Impassable —

But there is any accuracy about it.

I'm going to give you some examples:

1 - when a character is dazzled
The definition says : The creature is unable to see well because of over-stimulation of the eyes

2 - When a character is within ice storm :
"For the remaining duration of the spell, heavy snow and sleet rains down in the area."
Rules on weather = Snow, Heavy: Heavy snow reduces visibility ranges to one-quarter of the normal range, resulting in a –6 penalty on Perception checks

3 - when a character is within obscuring mist :
"A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet"

Are you ok to say all of those examples give a poor visibility? So add movement cost.

[Diego Rossi]

Not really defined. There is this piece of text:

PRD wrote:

Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision.

but nothing more and it is really "weak" rule wise.

I would say that it is left to the GM to decide what is "poor visibility" depending on the conditions. For a person on foot moving a normal speed 60' of visibility isn't a real problem when moving (you can get lost, but you see the obstacles well in advance. For a horse galloping at full speed is already more problematic. For a car going at 100 mph it is bad visibility.

[tiarakia]

I read that but that you explain corresponding in section "to get lose"
it doesn't correspond to the combat situation.

moreas it's written " Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity"

so poor visibility is ok for sleet storm, ice storm and fog

I think like you the GM have to decide when there is "poor visibility"

and you if you were the GM. Would you grant the condition "poor visibility" when the character is dazzled ? within fog , heavy snow, sleet rain. What do you think about it?

[maouse]

Just presume the important text is "Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions," And apply it evenly in each section. So a torch without additional light (or vision) is poor visibility.

Here are some examples of lighting https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/ A lot of things cause poor visibility unless you also have low light vision or darkvision.

In the case of movement: You can see 20' with a torch (which moves with you). As a Gm you can rule "you can move 20' unhindered, then see 20' and see 20'" - total 40'. Nice GM. Or you can say you can see 20', move 20', and anything after that in the same round is poor visibility, so you can only move 30/2 = 15 more feet "safely." 35'. Normal ruling. Or you can be a stickler and say the character is in poor visibility, so all their movement is reduced - 30' for a double move.

It is kind of up to you, but a bulls-eye lantern would solve the problem.

[Diego Rossi]

tiarakia wrote:

I read that but that you explain corresponding in section "to get lose"

it doesn't correspond to the combat situation.

moreas it's written " Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity"

so poor visibility is ok for sleet storm, ice storm and fog

I think like you the GM have to decide when there is "poor visibility"

and you if you were the GM. Would you grant the condition "poor visibility" when the character is dazzled ? within fog , heavy snow, sleet rain. What do you think about it?

I can only evaluate them against RL experience and then decide.

Dazzled: in RL there are stretch of road where I am moving with the sun directly in my face if it is the right hour of the day. In that direction my vision is really impaired, but even a few degrees of difference resolve that.
If I am looking in the direction of a nearby and strong light outside at night my vision is equally impaired and I need to look away to reduce the problem.
So I would say that if you are dazzled you are suffering for poor visibility when moving in the direction of the light source.

Fog: depend on the thickness of the fog and your speed. I have seen foggy conditions where you can see at more than a hundred meters and other conditions where everything more a few feet away is invisible.
Asa a rule of thumb I would say "if your sight range is less of what you can move with an action, you are suffering for poor visibility".

Heavy snow, sleet, rain: same as above.

[陳國光CHEN]

I would say if the creature's visibility is reduced to less than 60 feet by environment, its movement cost ×2 due to poor visibility.

Some character's is less than 60 feet itself, such as Clouded Vision Oracle, is an exception, because it is not reduced by environment.

[bbangerter]

陳國光CHEN wrote:

I would say if the creature's visibility is reduced to less than 60 feet by environment, its movement cost ×2 due to poor visibility.

Some character's is less than 60 feet itself, such as Clouded Vision Oracle, is an exception, because it is not reduced by environment.

If you are applying hampered movement due to poor visibility from environment, but not from visibility due to permanent conditions on your character, you may not be applying RAI correctly. eg, there should be no difference between being blind and being in darkness (without darkvision). The two things should effectively apply the same set of penalties to the character.

That said, hampered movement rules due to visibility are messy and inconsistent.

Consider the blinded condition:

Blinded wrote:

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength– and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

So, if I'm in fog, I move at half speed. But if I'm blinded I move at half speed, unless I make a DC 10 acro check, then I can move at full speed instead. What? So the condition (blind) which is definetely worse than reduced visibility, lets me move at full speed with a skill check. But just reduced visibility allows no such check?

Personally I think what they meant for reduced visibility hampering movement is that it was supposed to only apply for overland travel. Eg, can't see very far while traveling through the mountains, forest, whatever, then you could become lost, and your movement is slowed as you end up sometimes having to backtrack to get back on the right path. This all a result of not being able to see distant major landmarks that you might use to guide your path. But, that's not what actually came out in the rules...

If that is actually meant to apply to tactical movement as well, then they messed up on the clouded vision oracle, as not only is the oracles vision limited, there is nothing in the clouded vision oracle that would eliminate the reduced speed penalty for poor visibility, so the clouded vision oracle also takes an effective speed hit. As does anyone using a light source that is not equivalent to a daylight spell (torches, light cantrip, etc).

[陳國光CHEN]

Sounds reasonalbe, especially the part of poor visibility is worse than blind.

But how to explain the "poor visibility ×2" in Tactical Movement? I think "Tactical" means in combat.

[bbangerter]

陳國光CHEN wrote:

Sounds reasonalbe, especially the part of poor visibility is worse than blind.

But how to explain the "poor visibility ×2" in Tactical Movement? I think "Tactical" means in combat.

It does, which is part of why I think the rules are messy here.

Vision limited to 100' is poor visibility if trying to navigate by distant landmarks. But its plenty for tactical combat. For tactical combat maybe poor visibility should be 10' or less? I think the 60' stated in the rules is extreme. That's plenty for anyone but an archer - and even an archer could work well within the 60' range - most would probably like to be in the 30' range for point blank shot bonuses anyway. But 10' would also solve the clouded vision oracle problem. Which still leaves the blind is less severe than poor visibility problem of course, but got to start making house rules somewhere to fix the mess.

[陳國光CHEN]

If we have to make HR, how about the 60ft poor visibility remain unchanged and the creatures in poor visibility can make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed?

I don't like to change RAW, supplement seems more acceptable.

[陳國光CHEN]

What about go this way? If a character is in poor visibility, he can close his eyes to use blind rule to make a DC 10 Acrobatics to move in normal speed. Then open his eyes at the end of his turn.

There is no HR above, all within RAW.

[Azothath]

RAW is what it is, and sometimes not all that clear or explicit as it relies on the home GM to interpret his common experience into the game.

IMO Poor visibility is not being able to target a square(or foe) at 60ft due to environmental conditions(task oriented) or experiencing some visual hindrance (miss percentage, blindness, illusion, etc). That's pretty basic and makes most environmental conditions such as light fogs and snowy conditions confer poor visibility for overland travel. Most fog spells easily meet that minimum criteria for tactical movement and any task at 5 ft or more. Lighting can also prove a hazard.

The oracle curse clouded vision means if they move beyond the limits of their vision from their starting point they experience *2 movement cost, they cannot target foes outside the limits of their vision (more a hit on spell targeting and ranged attacks). If there aren't penalties then it's not a curse and they accepted that hindrance/penalty when they took it.

Blindness(see condition blinded) is worse than poor visibility.

Exploration: Movement
Exploration: Vision & Light
Conditions blinded

[Trokarr]

If an oracle suffers x2 movement cost beyond 30 ft from their starting location then any creature without night vision or darkvision operating by torchlight or light spell while in an area of darkness would also have this same penalty beyond 20 ft of movement due to the fact that all objects between 20 and 40 ft from their starting location would have concealment due to being in dim light. Even a character with night vision would have this penalty beyond 40 ft from their starting location.

[Trokarr]

This seems worse than the oracle curse for a normal human. A human barbarian in a dungeon would be in bad shape. Personally I have never seen this approach to movement in any PFS game I have attended.