Binary proficiencies considered harmful.

[Mekkis]

One line in the FAQ has made me very concerned:

The FAQ wrote:

All of the varied systems and formulas for determining your character's bonuses and statistics, like saving throws, attack bonuses, and skills, have been unified in a single, easy-to-use proficiency system based on your choices and your character's level.

This kind of system is very attractive, in that it makes the expectation of character's power-level tightly coupled with the character's level. Which makes balancing much, much easier.

The problem is that then, in the name of this balance, DCs scale at the same rate in comparison with CR.

And we end up in a situation where it doesn't matter what level you are: the entire random element of the game has been "unified" to "If you're proficient, roll 8+. If you're not proficient, roll 13+".

The most insidious part of this is that this doesn't make itself clear when sitting down for a single session playtesting the system. At low levels, the static differences (generally calculated from ability modifiers) and the randomness of the d20 maintain a similar "feel" to low-level Pathfinder. In a single session, the lack of progression or improvement isn't obvious.

When the proficiencies are fixed at character creation, it largely prevents a character from improving at anything.

Please, let's not buy into this hype. I'm fine with skill points and class-based base saves and BABs.

[Vidmaster7]

That part worries me too but I don't think I know enough about it yet.

[blahpers]

Quote:

When the proficiencies are fixed at character creation, it largely prevents a character from improving at anything.

...Wait, is this happening?

[Tallow]

blahpers wrote:

Quote:

When the proficiencies are fixed at character creation, it largely prevents a character from improving at anything.

...Wait, is this happening?

No. In another thread they have specifically said that proficiencies are not locked in at 1st level.

[RumpinRufus]

blahpers wrote:

Quote:

When the proficiencies are fixed at character creation, it largely prevents a character from improving at anything.

...Wait, is this happening?

No, it's not happening. See this post by Mark Seifter.

[Athaleon]

For any skill with scaling DCs, this is already the case. Either max out skills like Stealth, or else don't bother. Like the Red Queen said, you must run as fast as you can just to stay where you are. In a way, the whole game is like this: Your damage goes up, but so does enemy HP.

The characters are getting objectively, measurably better. But at the same time, you can't be allowed to push the RNG right off the table (e.g. auto-succeeding Stealth checks with a high enough bonus) when you're facing a near-peer opponent.

[blahpers]

RumpinRufus wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Quote:

When the proficiencies are fixed at character creation, it largely prevents a character from improving at anything.

...Wait, is this happening?

No, it's not happening. See this post by Mark Seifter.

That's a relief. : )

[Mekkis]

Athaleon wrote:

For any skill with scaling DCs, this is already the case. Either max out skills like Stealth, or else don't bother. Like the Red Queen said, you must run as fast as you can just to stay where you are. In a way, the whole game is like this: Your damage goes up, but so does enemy HP.

The characters are getting objectively, measurably better. But at the same time, you can't be allowed to push the RNG right off the table (e.g. auto-succeeding Stealth checks with a high enough bonus) when you're facing a near-peer opponent.

Why not? We already allow it with Invisibility.

If you put a lot of effort into something, you should be able to be That Good, that you will consistently succeed at it.

Unless the adversary is extremely familiar with the stuff they're looking at, a skilled forger should be able to deceive them every time.

[GreyWolfLord]

Mekkis wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

For any skill with scaling DCs, this is already the case. Either max out skills like Stealth, or else don't bother. Like the Red Queen said, you must run as fast as you can just to stay where you are. In a way, the whole game is like this: Your damage goes up, but so does enemy HP.

The characters are getting objectively, measurably better. But at the same time, you can't be allowed to push the RNG right off the table (e.g. auto-succeeding Stealth checks with a high enough bonus) when you're facing a near-peer opponent.

Why not? We already allow it with Invisibility.

If you put a lot of effort into something, you should be able to be That Good, that you will consistently succeed at it.

Unless the adversary is extremely familiar with the stuff they're looking at, a skilled forger should be able to deceive them every time.

I agree. This is why I think the system where a character with skill investments may have a +30 to a skill (or better) where as another may not have any bonus.

Someone who has never practiced brain surgery shouldn't be anywhere close to someone who is an expert at it, or even stand a chance of even succeeding in areas where an expert would do it easily in many instances where skill is determined.