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Usually, I'm told, between levels 8 and 12.
I've been gaming a long time and am a big fan of 3.5, and I'm starting to appreciate some of the differences between that system and Pathfinder. Society play is great stuff- BUT-!
I heard a rumor that between 8 and 12 the mechanics start to collapse as insane to-hit bonuses become commonplace and the delightful chess-like game becomes checkersish, and combat becomes a question of simply who can dish out the most damage the fastest. I'd like to hear more about the problem...
...Because I bet there are some resourceful types out there who have found solutions on the elegant side. And I'd love to hear some of those, as well.
In my experience, anything past level 10 gets pretty crazy, but that's a good thing. If heroes aren't doing crazy epic things by level 10, what's the point of leveling up?
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Some possible issues in higher level play:
A PC spends their wealth on AC boosts. Eventually, no enemy can hit them except on a natural 20. This makes martial enemies look ridiculous. Why are they bothering to fight a battle they can't possibly win?
Multiple PCs get really well-optimized damage output. The average boss monster gets to act once at most before dying. The GM can only provide a challenge by adding large numbers of minions to slow them down.
A spellcaster finds a way to completely neutralise all enemies unless they can make an incredibly hard saving throw. Battles mostly consist of martials beating helpless enemies to death.
Optimisation differences between two characters mean that, say, a skills-focused rogue falls further and further behind a pouncing natural-attack barbarian until he feels completely useless in battle.
Caster-martial disparity breaks out, so that, say, a skills-focused rogue feels useless out of battle because anything he can do, the caster can do better with magic. "I'll climb into the fortress, using stealth to scout..." "Don't bother. I'll just fly in using invisibility. It's safer, because I can teleport myself out if there's any trouble. Or I could scry on them or send in my familiar or mind control an enemy..."
But none of these are guaranteed to happen. There's no such thing as a 'typical' group of high-level adventurers.
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Level 12 is about as high as I have gotten and my party was rolling. We didn't even have a full caster with us. The thematic finesse and ability to develop the story through combat still are there, it's just faster paced, higher stakes.
We hardly ever missed anything at that point, and our damage was on point for not having any full casters. Initiative was a huge factor that determined the excitement, given none of us had buffs, traits, or feats to boost initiative. It gets scary when you are toe to toe with a storm giant and you know you are going last.
But I figured it is supposed to be out of control in later levels. If we wanted mundane, we wouldn't be playing fantasy games.
Graceful solutions? Have an initiative of one million, always go first, that way you can put your flavor to what happens next, because it's going to be over in 12 seconds flat.
My feeling is the same - above level 10-12, the game starts to fall apart.
Case in point: in our two most recent Jade Regent games, where PCs are all level 11-12, we spent the evening doing *one* fight. We were up against tough opponents, so it was far from a sure thing, but it took all night just to slog through the battle.
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My feeling is the same - above level 10-12, the game starts to fall apart.
Case in point: in our two most recent Jade Regent games, where PCs are all level 11-12, we spent the evening doing *one* fight. We were up against tough opponents, so it was far from a sure thing, but it took all night just to slog through the battle.
But that can happen in any D20 system as more complex and advanced abilities become available... Sounds like Epic Level Syndrome just sets in a bit faster with Pathfinder, especially if characters are built by powergaming munchkins like some of my dearest friends.
Is the issue more on the PC end of gameplay than with the monsters?Is a GM throwing high character level level baddies a viable solution, or does damage output/save-or-die DC surpass maximum possible Hitpoint ceilings & saves?
Lastly, (since it's in the news,) any thoughts on how second edition will restructure the matter?
When the 10th-level wizard in my Rise of the Runelords learned Teleport, the party stopped having overland travel adventures. If he was unfamiliar with a place despite his high Knowledge(geography) and Knowledge(history), a fellow party member could cast Wind Walk as an alternative.
In the 17th-level Witchwar Legacy module after Rise of the Runelords, the rogue had used his wealth to raise his AC to 45.
At 13th level in my Jade Regent campaign, we nicknamed the fighter "The Cuisinart" (a food processor that chops food very quickly) because he could easily kill a CR 13 Earth Yai Oni in a single round.
None of this made the game fall apart. The Rise of the Runelords party still had adventures at their destination, the unhittable rogue still cared about the threat to other party members, and the Jade Regent party was happy to herd oni toward the killer fighter.
Most D&D editions and clones have this problem (4E is broken in other ways).
It just kicks in earlier in 3.x due to systematic changes a lot dating back to the 2E-3.0 changeover that Pathfinder inherited.
It was 18 years ago, 20 if you count the 3.0 development cycle. The play testers apparently played it like 2E and did not test the higher levels.
Low-level adventures are very immersive: you don't have more attacks and aren't much stronger than the average commoner, and the town guard will totally kick your ass if you start murderhoboing right from the jump. There are more "party on party" type of conflicts, and your character will have unaddressed weaknesses.
I like Champions (a superhero game system from awhile back), but for medieval fantasy games, I find myself gravitating to E6/P6Codex home-games. It's a great relief for the GM as he needn't constantly fret about how the PCs will completely wreck in five seconds whatever story he's spent hours and days on just because he forgot about "that" overpowered thing that solves all problems.
I GMPC'ed a totally original game based on 5e dynamics, I was a full level half celestial template paladin playing with gestalt companions, party of three.
I didn't upgrade or class level most encounters, just gave basic formation structure to generic battles. Three goblins in front with shields sort of thing. They didn't have teamwork feats to get extra bonuses, just used more intelligent tactics and had archers behind shield walls and a captain with a greatsword sort of thing. With players starting more powerful, I had freedom to make encounters more memorable.
The three of us got to level 12 before we stopped playing, but I had more campaign for us. It was never boring or even hard to work up the formula for encounters. The only thing was waiting for all the dice to roll.
The only thing was waiting for all the dice to roll.
I don't think there is much point in rolling countless damage die. Maybe once or twice for the thrill, but it gets old (at least for me). Taking average damage should usually make no difference, and is much faster. If you want some randomness, you could roll (for example) 2 die and take average results for the others. A 10d6 fireball becomes 28 + 2d6 then.
When it comes to attack rolls, using color-coded d20s helps.
We were using color coated die. It helps quite a bit. I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining about rolling all those dice, but there were encounters that we spent more time counting dots on dice than in combat. The three of us wrecked shop through a camp of centaurs with called head shots and I couldn't stop us because we were all rolling great. It was insanely enjoyable for all of us. Out of hand compared to everything before that level? Absolutely, but our characters were fully turned on with the main feats of our builds. We had developed pretty decent small unit tactics. We ran from a storm giant and hid in a church, but he just ripped the roof off. We killed him with ease and shared a laugh about why we ever ran. Those later levels are what make the emotional investment into your character worthwhile.