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And a third issue with the weird AoO stuff was with a Gunslinger, who wanted to coup de grace a conscious yet helpless person, but because "reasons" to try would get her hand cut off by her target. Because "reasons".Just gonna say, this... should not be a thing. If the target is Helpless as you say, which they have to be for a Coup anyways... they shouldn't be able to make an Attack of Opportunity. By definition... "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." As such, if they are physically capable of fighting back (like making that AoO) they by definition shouldn't count as Helpless.It was mostly to do with the target's build. It was another player (who was stealing from the party and threatening other players, lots of anti-player behaviour that needed curbing and I wasn't the GM to say "stop it", so I needed an in-character way of dealing with it).
Drow Noble (from Bestiary, not from ARG), without level adjustment, Rogue. Uncanny means couldn't be flat footed, more skills than you could count because b%$@@+$# rolled stats, trance so aware while sleeping so there was basically no window of opportunity.
Essentially had to get them while distracted. So when I caught him sleight of handing more magic gear with his permanent detect magic, I pressed the gun to his head and called action, he does anything, coup de grace. Out of combat so weapon not ready, and before that moment I'm an ally, so there's no reason to suspect it. I didn't want to just shoot, I wanted to give him the option to explain himself, maybe curb the behaviour, but to talk means actions, and once he gets one, combat technically starts and despite still being the same situation...
If he acts, called action goes off, however due to his abilities, my called action is still a ranged attack so he gets AoO. His own action and Uncanny Dodge means that he's not flat-footed and can take the attack with...
There's a whole lot that's wrong here.
Uncanny Dodge means you can't be caught flatfooted, it doesn't mean you can't become helpless.
Drow and Elves don't trance in Pathfinder, that's a DnD thing.
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And a third issue with the weird AoO stuff was with a Gunslinger, who wanted to coup de grace a conscious yet helpless person, but because "reasons" to try would get her hand cut off by her target. Because "reasons".Just gonna say, this... should not be a thing. If the target is Helpless as you say, which they have to be for a Coup anyways... they shouldn't be able to make an Attack of Opportunity. By definition... "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." As such, if they are physically capable of fighting back (like making that AoO) they by definition shouldn't count as Helpless.It was mostly to do with the target's build. It was another player (who was stealing from the party and threatening other players, lots of anti-player behaviour that needed curbing and I wasn't the GM to say "stop it", so I needed an in-character way of dealing with it).
Drow Noble (from Bestiary, not from ARG), without level adjustment, Rogue. Uncanny means couldn't be flat footed, more skills than you could count because b$!&$&!@ rolled stats, trance so aware while sleeping so there was basically no window of opportunity.
I'm not sure what this "trance so aware while sleeping" is coming from. Even if using the old Forgotten Realms elf thing (which notably did not make the transition into Pathfinder normally, so that's a home-game thing) I'm pretty sure even they were still able to be taken by surprise when "sleeping".
Essentially had to get them while distracted. So when I caught him sleight of handing more magic gear with his permanent detect magic, I pressed the gun to his head and called action, he does anything, coup de grace.
Coup De Grace... really does not work that way. In order to deliver a Coup De Grace the target must be Helpless. Flat-Footed is not the same as Helpless, even if the target was Flat-Footed (which thanks to Uncanny Dodge, they're not). Also you can't Ready (I'm guessing by "Called Action" you mean Readied Actions) a Coup De Grace, since you can only Ready up to a Standard and a Coup is a Full Round Action.
Out of combat so weapon not ready, and before that moment I'm an ally, so there's no reason to suspect it. I didn't want to just shoot, I wanted to give him the option to explain himself, maybe curb the behaviour, but to talk means actions, and once he gets one, combat technically starts and despite still being the same situation...
If he acts, called action goes off, however due to his abilities, my called action is still a ranged attack so he gets AoO. His own action and Uncanny Dodge means that he's not flat-footed and can take the attack with his nonsense. Once he acts, no longer helpless and cannot coup de grace. Because I wanted to be reasonable and talk.
Well, for starters, as I said he never was Helpless. Unaware = Flat Footed, not Helpless. And he's not even that because Uncanny Dodge. But besides that...
You said he didn't have his weapon out. Does he have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? If not... he still can't AoO you. If he has no weapons drawn and does not have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, he does not Threaten you. And you can only take an AoO on opponents you Threaten.
I've never understood #4 in the OP. Now I may take umbrage with Move actions to physically propel my PC up to their speed, or corner case defensive actions and feats, but this idea of "needing everything" to make a "good character" to me just seems silly.
Before I go any further, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't want to or mean to disparage how people play or how they enjoy this game. I merely wanted to point out how I feel about the #4 statement above.
So the reason I think this statement is a tad frustrating is the numbers of the game. What I consider a "good character" is one capable of hitting benchmarks proving their effectiveness in their role. A level one fighter for example needs to be able to reliably (IMO, greater than 50% of the time) be able to hit the avg AC of monsters, deal 1/4 or more of a CR 1's monster and survive a CR 1 monster's attack in the process.
Allow me to clarify a little better. I agree with you entirely, it is a team game and the GM has an important role. No one player should need or even want everything, though that is difficult to drill into some players. I have one problem player in particular who throws hissy fits when all the other members of the table have 20 point buy, and I have an issue with his 3 rolled 18s and nothing below 10-12.
To my side of the issue though, I'll bring up my two favorite cases lately. I have a Wizard and a Vigilante, one caster, one martial.
The Wizard needs Int as her primary stat. Spell attacks still function off of other stats though, which is fine. For a melee touch spell, she needs str to hit, and for ranged, dex. She lacks a BAB bonus of any repute to boost that, meaning she likely has to pick one and ignore the other. If she chooses str, she will likely lack dex and the AC/Reflex it provides since she can't wear armor. If she chooses dex, she will be nearly unable to hit touch attacks which require her to be close.
That's a small simplification, focusing only on the wizard being a wizard. She can still learn spells to make up for some things, and can use feats to fix others. However you lose versatility with those needed options.
The Vigilante, is not the best option. Wildsoul Arachnid isn't great, and I had a longer post about her needs earlier you can read, but the basics. Her Wildsoul powers need Con for their uses, her Intimidate build needs Charisma, or a feat to sub for strength (though that wouldn't address Diplomacy), and then has to pick between Str or Dex for her main combat stat. If she chooses Str, she can't do the TWF build she wants, with Dex, she still needs passable strength to not take penalties due to Vigilante talents hating feats. With Dex though she also has manditory feats like Weapon Finesse, the aforementioned TWF, and others. As an unarmed combattant she would benifit from Style Feats but cannot qualify for any (generally. Boar Style and I think 1 other in the core books are exceptions) because she isn't a monk/brawler and her Int/Wis are too low. Also since she's not a Monk/Brawler, she has 2 magic items she'll need to get magic damage on attacks to bypass DR, amulet of might fists, OR brawling armor.
That's again, a simplification, but it expresses what I'm trying to get at. "If you want to play X, you need XYZ". There are numerous threads for character building advice around, and reworking because things don't work well enough to remain relevant.
You said he didn't have his weapon out. Does he have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? If not... he still can't AoO you. If he has no weapons drawn and does not have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, he does not Threaten you. And you can only take an AoO on opponents you Threaten.
As said, this was a long arguement with him, me, and the GM. You raise good points, I could have taken him sleeping since my bad, elves don't trance in PF.
I also left out the part his stupid high stats made his touch AC too high to hit for me, so I needed FF and Helpless. And yes, you can only ready a Standard, which is a bit of silliness considering the situation.
And part of the arguement came with Quick Draw, which he had, and argued could use for the circumstance, which was wrong (and he only took because I was plotting his murder, I was in talks with the GM for days about the behaviour and she told him...).
All the looking into how to get him helpless and not alone so that I wasn't a jerk just executing him and the other players could have a say was what got me looking deeper into PF's rules in the first place and finding, what I felt, were stiff restrictions with little reason. And inspired some of my OP points.
And a third issue with the weird AoO stuff was with a Gunslinger, who wanted to coup de grace a conscious yet helpless person, but because "reasons" to try would get her hand cut off by her target. Because "reasons".Just gonna say, this... should not be a thing. If the target is Helpless as you say, which they have to be for a Coup anyways... they shouldn't be able to make an Attack of Opportunity. By definition... "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." As such, if they are physically capable of fighting back (like making that AoO) they by definition shouldn't count as Helpless.It was mostly to do with the target's build. It was another player (who was stealing from the party and threatening other players, lots of anti-player behaviour that needed curbing and I wasn't the GM to say "stop it", so I needed an in-character way of dealing with it).
Drow Noble (from Bestiary, not from ARG), without level adjustment, Rogue. Uncanny means couldn't be flat footed, more skills than you could count because b~*+@*@~ rolled stats, trance so aware while sleeping so there was basically no window of opportunity.
Essentially had to get them while distracted. So when I caught him sleight of handing more magic gear with his permanent detect magic, I pressed the gun to his head and called action, he does anything, coup de grace. Out of combat so weapon not ready, and before that moment I'm an ally, so there's no reason to suspect it. I didn't want to just shoot, I wanted to give him the option to explain himself, maybe curb the behaviour, but to talk means actions, and once he gets one, combat technically starts and despite still being the same situation...
If he acts, called action goes off, however due to his abilities, my called action is still a ranged attack so he gets AoO. His own action and Uncanny Dodge means that he's not flat-footed and can take the attack with...
As Shinigami02 said, "If the target is Helpless as you say, ..." The target was not helpless. The Drow Noble could have said, "Bring it on, punk. I am betting that I can survive your little coup de grace," and acted not the least bit helpless.
The scenario is also like the famous Han Shot First scene in Star Wars. Greedo had Han Solo threated with a blaster pointed directly at him, ready to fire, while Han's ability to dodge was impaired by sitting at a booth. Han pulled his gun out of his holster out of line of sight due to the table, aimed it also out of sight, and shot Greedo. As a GM, I would have been amused if the player of the Drow Noble said, "As we talk, I want to make a Sleight of Hand check to pull out my dagger without Isaac Zephyr's character noticing." Remember, Isaac Zephyr's character did want to talk, so six seconds of conversation would yield a turn where no character was flatfooted.
We also have some violations of Pathfinder rules in that a coup de grace cannot be readied because it is a full-round action and ranged weapons cannot coup de grace. Those are minor--the big rule problem is that Isaac Zephyr said, "I pressed the gun to his head and called action,..." Pressing the gun to his head is a separate action from calling a readied action. If the character did not perform an action to press the gun to the drow's head, then he would be standing five feet away in his own square with the gun merely pointed at the drow. If I were the GM, I would call for a grapple combat maneuver to press the gun to his head. If successful, then the drow would gain the grappled condition, which prevents attacks of opportunity.
Finally, we players don't want this to work. Suppose Isaac Zephyr had readied the weapon to the head properly, the Drow Noble forced him to do the coup de grace, and the coup de grace killed the Drow Noble. The players in this game, who might be playing evil characters from the sounds of the scene, realize that they have a gunslinger in the party who can kill them at the drop of a dime if they let their guard down. And that gunslinger has proven his willingness to do so over a theft that they did not see happen. As a player, I would want that gunslinger out of the party immediately, and ban any other character capable of doing the same thing.
The Wizard needs Int as her primary stat. Spell attacks still function off of other stats though, which is fine. For a melee touch spell, she needs str to hit, and for ranged, dex. She lacks a BAB bonus of any repute to boost that, meaning she likely has to pick one and ignore the other. If she chooses str, she will likely lack dex and the AC/Reflex it provides since she can't wear armor. If she chooses dex, she will be nearly unable to hit touch attacks which require her to be close.
I am running the Iron Gods adventure path, which is almost a primer in touch attacks, since any rich PC can purchase a laser pistol, which does ranged touch attacks with fire damage. In addition, the party includes a magus, gunslinger, and to mix the two together, a gunslinging bloodrager. At 15th level, they defeated a CR 23 enemy with AC 44, a threshold only the fighter could hit. But against touch attacks, they never figured out its touch AC, because they could hit on a natural 2. The touch AC was 11.
Let me check the NPC Codex. The CR 6 Freelance Thief rogue has AC 19, touch 15, flatfooted 14. Thus, the 4th-level Str 18 fighter with a +1 greatsword hits on a roll of 10 or higher (55% chance), and the 4th-level Str 10 wizard with Shocking Grasp hits on a roll of 13 or higher (40% chance). The fighter has an advantage, but not much. And I picked a case that favors the fighter. Against the CR 6 Sundering Axe barbarian, with AC 18, touch 9, flatfooted 17, the fighter has a 60% chance and the wizard has a 70% chance.
Touch ACs are low compared to regular ACs, and that makes up for the wizard's low BAB. Natural armor numbers do not appear to be set by the physical nature of the opponent; for example, the foe in my first paragraph achieved AC 44 through +14 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +19 natural, –1 size. Yep, its skin was tougher than enchanted steel. Natural armor seems to arbitrarily bump up AC to give the fighter a challenge. The wizard does not have to overcome that arbitrary challenge. It is fair for a wizard, but it gets too easy for a bard, magus, and any other arcane caster with a 3/4 BAB. Or the gunslinger and bloodrager with their full BAB.
If she chooses Str, she can't do the TWF build she wants, with Dex, she still needs passable strength to not take penalties due to Vigilante talents hating feats. With Dex though she also has manditory feats like Weapon Finesse, the aforementioned TWF, and others.
The math of Two-Weapon Fighting is difficult and I won't explain it here. I recommend Treantmonk's Guide to the Ranger, though the copy my search found (link) has the pictures out of place. The gist is that TWF benefits only classes that have full extra damage to off-hand attacks, such as a ranger's favored enemy, a rogue's sneak attack, or a stalker vigilante's hidden strike. Strength bonus and Power Attack are halved on off-hand attacks. Fortunately, the Fist of the Avenger and Lethal Grace vigilante talents give this full extra damage. Good call there.
What an interesting day at the table that would be. Having a character willingly kill another party member is no joke. Mathmuse, you bring up a very good point that the rest of the party didn't see the Drow steal anything, so this would look very bad for the gunslinger.
What an interesting day at the table that would be. Having a character willingly kill another party member is no joke. Mathmuse, you bring up a very good point that the rest of the party didn't see the Drow steal anything, so this would look very bad for the gunslinger.
Oh yeah, totally. I knew my character would probably be leaving the party after that. However this was a character (the Drow Noble) that after a misfire, attempted to grab the Gunslinger and offer her as a hostage. And it would not be the first time he had threatened her life, in front of the entire party.
Regardless, an overabundance of rules for the concept of holding a man at gunpoint while he's crouched down over a corpse or box doing something else.
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Im not ready to say movement rules dont need a visit, but this complaint seems like a corner case.
Also, I like that class, multi-class, skills, stats, and feats force you to make choices. Having to make a sacrifice because you need everything is a feature to me and not a bug.
I do think bounded accuracy solves a lot of the MAD stat problems people have. Though its implementation is tricky and not suited to all playstyles. Once again im a little reluctant to turn PF into 5.5E.
ranged weapons cannot coup de grace
...Actually some ranged weapons can coup.
You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
Personally I'd probably allow this to apply to fire-arms too, given they did not exist yet at the time those rules were written and function similarly to a crossbow. Otherwise though, pretty much agree.
I will also say that beyond the early game few Wizards are likely to care about Melee Touch, given it is very rare among higher levels. If higher level spells have an attack at all, it's usually Ranged Touch, frequently Rays, and of course many of the best spells are just Save-based.
I will also say that beyond the early game few Wizards are likely to care about Melee Touch, given it is very rare among higher levels. If higher level spells have an attack at all, it's usually Ranged Touch, frequently Rays, and of course many of the best spells are just Save-based.
Awe... Now I'm extra sad, cause I'm playing a blind wizard. Her effective sight is as far as Deathwatch and Detect Magic let her see, so she uses all touch spells.
