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So, for context, I'm creating an Herb Witch. It gains the Herb Lore ability, which, aside from providing some neat remedies to status conditions and poison/disease, also allows you to use Profession (herbalist) for Craft (alchemy) checks, and giving a 1/2 level bonus to Profession (herbalist).
My question for this is, what about items and abilities that provide bonuses to Craft (alchemy)? Things like masterwork tools, crafter's fortune, etc. Even the cauldron hex that the archetype forces you in to choosing at 2nd level provides an insight bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks.
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I would base my rulings on this to be the same as I treat the Bard ability Versatile Performance.
The general consensus is that as strange as it sounds tools, kits, feats, traits, and anything else that grants a bonus to the substituting skill still grant bonuses. This stems from the wording of Versatile Performance, specifically "total Perform skill bonus" which seems to indicate the designers did not intend to include just ranks, ability modifiers, and class skill bonus.
I generally house rule against kits and tools, but support feats, traits, and class bonuses in my homebrew games, but allow all bonuses as a Venture Officer at organised play since there is no RAW to countermand such a ruling.
As for items which affect the original skill you are out of luck. "He can use his bonus in that skill IN PLACE OF his bonus in associated skills." Which mean any modifiers to the original skill would not come into play.
I guess if you think about it practically, it comes down to are they boosting a character's ability, or boosting a skill check. Something like a circumstance bonus to a Craft (alchemy) check should still apply when using your Profession (herbalism) skill for it, because the circumstances are still easier (this is where masterwork tools would come in). The ability in question (the cauldron hex), however, is an insight bonus to the skill check. That's harder to judge.
I still don't see this leading to any form of double dipping. I mean, you still couldn't use an insight bonus on Craft (alchemy) AND an insight bonus on Profession (herbalism) - only the highest would apply. This certainly seems the most permissive interpretation, and actually allows the archetype in question to actually help itself out (otherwise a large part of the hex, that is mandated by the archetype, is made irrelevant by another part of the archetype).
Ehhhh, I don't think so.
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
It's pretty clear--take out one skill, replace it with the other. Bonuses to the new skill apply; bonuses to the old skill do not. Herb Lore is worded with less detail but the same principle applies.
Fortunately, it shouldn't be hard to find a masterwork tool for a Profession skill--say, a well-crafted medicine bag stocked with rare herbal catalysts or an ingenious grinding device (with adjustable grain!) for preparing powders. Can't help with crafter's fortune, though, without spell research.
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Can't help with crafter's fortune, though, without spell research.
Meh. You just pick up Brevoy Bandit and add your highest non-wisdom stat bonus to the check. If that's not enough take Tattooed Focus too for another +2.
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What bonuses apply will depend entirely on the wording of the ability. With Herb Witch it says:
An herb witch can attempt a Profession (herbalist) check in place of any Craft (alchemy) check
Which means you're now making a profession herbalist check rather than a craft check and no bonuses to the craft skill will apply.
Now on the other hand, the Asmodean Advocate says:
She can use her Profession (barrister) skill for Bluff and Diplomacy checks.
So in this case they're still Bluff/Diplomacy checks and thus you would still get any bonuses that apply to those kind of checks.
What bonuses apply will depend entirely on the wording of the ability. With Herb Witch it says:An herb witch can attempt a Profession (herbalist) check in place of any Craft (alchemy) checkWhich means you're now making a profession herbalist check rather than a craft check and no bonuses to the craft skill will apply.
Now on the other hand, the Asmodean Advocate says:
She can use her Profession (barrister) skill for Bluff and Diplomacy checks.So in this case they're still Bluff/Diplomacy checks and thus you would still get any bonuses that apply to those kind of checks.
Sadly, this is based on the assumption that those writing the ability believed this as well, and didn't just write things out narratively (like they tend to do) the way the words flowed better. Really, it's still the shame of the cauldron hex being sort of wasted if that genuinely is how they intended it to operate. As it is, for the first few levels, the INT based herb witch is likely to have a higher Craft (alchemy) than Profession (herbalist), which is just sad, thematically.
What bonuses apply will depend entirely on the wording of the ability. With Herb Witch it says:Sadly, this is based on the assumption that those writing the ability believed this as well, and didn't just write things out narratively (like they tend to do) the way the words flowed better. Really, it's still the shame of the cauldron hex being sort of wasted if that genuinely is how they intended it to operate. As it is, for the first few levels, the INT based herb witch is likely to have a higher Craft (alchemy) than Profession (herbalist), which is just sad, thematically.An herb witch can attempt a Profession (herbalist) check in place of any Craft (alchemy) checkWhich means you're now making a profession herbalist check rather than a craft check and no bonuses to the craft skill will apply.
Now on the other hand, the Asmodean Advocate says:
She can use her Profession (barrister) skill for Bluff and Diplomacy checks.So in this case they're still Bluff/Diplomacy checks and thus you would still get any bonuses that apply to those kind of checks.
*points to brevoy bandit* Why exactly should Craft (alchemy) be higher when you can add wis AND int to it?
I guess there at least exists a slight fraction of a chance this might get looked at for clarification from the dev team, since the Herb Witch was reproduced in the Ultimate Wilderness book, so there is some development life after 1st printing, unlike the soft cover it was in before.
It does make me wonder what ability was deemed so powerful with the herb witch to warrant losing 2 hexes for Herb Lore in Ultimate Wilderness when only one was lost in Heroes of the Wild.
EDIT: I thought i noticed what change warranted the addition of the 10th level hex to the archetype's losses, in that at 10th level they can now remove permanent conditions - until I realized that they now cannot even cure poison or disease UNTIL 10th level, just suppress them for 1 minute. I think my 'herb centric' character concept is going to back away from the Herb Witch at this point.
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*points to brevoy bandit* Why exactly should Craft (alchemy) be higher when you can add wis AND int to it?
So the herb witch's signature ability is only really viable if the character has a checkered past and is from the river kingdoms? An archetype should not depend on a regional trait.