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Ok, looks like I may have blundered into a social minefield... and I need a bit of advice on how to "fix my problem".
I have a PC (the one I am posting as) that I made a mistake on back during character creation... and I am not really wanting to "correct" him, so I would like some advice. Maybe someone knows a gimmick?
My Kitsune Vigilante is 4th level now, soon to be 5th. I had a lot of fun creating her, and even went so far as painting different figures for both Social and Vigilante guises. Different portrait art for my table tent and everything - again showing him both as:
"Knightspawn" - female kitsune and as
"Sir Loin" - male human.
The problem is... it seems kitsune keep the same sex when they shift to human form. Something that I missed back when I was creating her.
So far no one has noticed, or at least not pointed this problem out to me...
SO, is there any way for a kitsune to change sexes when shifting to human form? Or do I just make this as part of his disguise? Taking a -2 to the skill check when she is in human form?
Or am I just being silly and should continue playing him as is?
or... something else?
I would really like to keep this aspect of her as is... does anyone know a way that is legal in PFS to do this and still be within the rules?
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The Kitsune feat Realistic Likeness should cover what you need, as well as letting you turn into any other human you've seen.
wouldn't that still suffer the -2 on the Disguise skill check? Same as just shifting to Sir Loin?
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
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Yeah, there is no mechanical way to make the Kitsune shapechange make you change your physical sex. Sorry.
I'd go with the "part of the Vigilante disguise" explanation. -2 really isn't that much, and "pretending to be different gender" is kind of a classic trope when it comes to masked heroes and the like that Vigilante is trying to emulate. It could be a cool part of your character.
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The Kitsune feat Realistic Likeness should cover what you need, as well as letting you turn into any other human you've seen.wouldn't that still suffer the -2 on the Disguise skill check? Same as just shifting to Sir Loin?
** spoiler omitted **
Probably not. Thats a penalty for having to look the part and i don't believe you add it in when your appearance can pass any and all tests including writing in the snow.
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Yeah, there is no mechanical way to make the Kitsune shapechange make you change your physical sex. Sorry.
I'd go with the "part of the Vigilante disguise" explanation. -2 really isn't that much, and "pretending to be different gender" is kind of a classic trope when it comes to masked heroes and the like that Vigilante is trying to emulate. It could be a cool part of your character.
yeah - it is only a -2 after all... still, that's 20% of the bonus she gets for switching guises.
Maybe a Masterwork Tool to cover the difference? If this were a Terry Pratchett Diskworld novel, it would be "pair of socks"...
Monsrous Regiment
That would give me a +2 bonus, perhaps a "MW Tool" specific to Knightspawn disguised as Sir Loin... problem is there is an existing "tool" for Disguise (a Disguise Kit), and some judges in PFS would prohibit the use of a MW Tool for Disguise because the kit exists... But I think I will go that way. 50gp for "a pair of socks". And if it gets disallowed it's only a +2...
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Why not sleeves of many garments? Also I think that with realistic likeness feat, you would be covered.
The PFS rules let you switch your gender between sessions since there is no almost* no mechanical benefit to being male or female. I don’t think you are hurting anyone here and if you add realistic likeness and the sleeves for costume changes, you should be fine.
Hmm
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*The one place where your physical sex makes a difference is in character weight, which affects characters on flying mounts. Nearly all low level characters on flying mounts are female because of that five pound weight difference.
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Why not sleeves of many garments? Also I think that with realistic likeness feat, you would be covered.
The PFS rules let you switch your gender between sessions since there is no almost* no mechanical benefit to being male or female. I don’t think you are hurting anyone here and if you add realistic likeness and the sleeves for costume changes, you should be fine.
Hmm
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*The one place where your physical sex makes a difference is in character weight, which affects characters on flying mounts. Nearly all low level characters on flying mounts are female because of that five pound weight difference.
sorry hmmm.... I don't understand what sleeves of many garments would even be doing for her. I mean, he actually physically already switches clothing when switching from one Persona to the other, so using sleeves of many garments wouldn't actually be doing anything would it?
My question/issue is just falling back to the -2 to the Disguise skill check suffered when she switches from Knightspawn to Sir Loin...
Disguise of +2 (yeah, a poor CHA) is modified by...
Seamless Guise (vigilante ability) would give her a +20 circumstance bonus, plus
Change Shape Kitsune ability gives a +10 racial bonus, even with the "Disguised as different gender –2" and "Disguised as different race –2" that would still give a final DC of 28 right? (2+20+10-2-2) I'm wondering if I need to boost it even more?
The other possibility is that the character is physically male but identifies as female in social form. The practical advantage of that idea is that it is the vigilante form that will be more closely scrutinized, so it won't occur to most people that the social form might be a cross-dresser.
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The other possibility is that the character is physically male but identifies as female in social form. The practical advantage of that idea is that it is the vigilante form that will be more closely scrutinized, so it won't occur to most people that the social form might be a cross-dresser.
well...
I had intended for the PC to be Female in vigilante identity (as a Kitsune) and male in the Social identity (appearing human), so that is sort of reversed of what you are describing above. Physically female (Kitsune) but identifies as male (human) in social form.
I just wanted to be sure that you considered both possibilities for the physical sex of the character -- so go with whichever works best for you.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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With a take ten you have 38 disguise. (And I know that *you* know how to ‘take ten’!) That should be enough for most social situations. The Sleeves of Many Garments was not to improve your disguise, but just allow you to do quick changes from one to another.
I have a kitsune bard with realistic likeness feat, and she has disguise and bluff maxed so that she can become any human she sees. The sleeves help with that illusion.
(If you hadn’t dumped charisma, I would suggest you take three levels of Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler and then people would have trouble even scrying out your secret identity!)
You could make the character intersex and have the phenotype manifest differently for the two species.
Honestly, that works for me. Our culture is continually revising their expectations on gender. If your character’s soul is a “they” you should be able to be whomever you want to be.
Hmm
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Maybe a cup (is the word cup in english? We call it a tock). A masterwork one. If someone ask, say that Sir Lion will never bee kneed in the groin, as that is very un-knightly.I think you are referring to a codpiece. Or possibly a box (which male fencers and cricketers wear to protect themselves).
A cup is, in fact, a piece of athletic equipment designed to protect male genitalia when participating in sports. (Among other uses of the word, such as drinking vessel.)
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A cup is, in fact, a piece of athletic equipment designed to protect male genitalia when participating in sports. (Among other uses of the word, such as drinking vessel.)Maybe a cup (is the word cup in english? We call it a tock). A masterwork one. If someone ask, say that Sir Lion will never bee kneed in the groin, as that is very un-knightly.I think you are referring to a codpiece. Or possibly a box (which male fencers and cricketers wear to protect themselves).
Aka a box (at least, that's what we call it here in England).
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Has it been officially ruled that a Kitsune cannot change gender? Could somebody please point me to that ruling.Well, the base kitsune Change Shape ability says:
Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex.So you straight up can't do this right out of the gate; the "phenotype manifesting differently" idea that CBDunkerson suggested is still going to conflict with that.
Not really.
An intersex person can be, for example, genetically 'male' (XY) but phenotypically 'female' (e.g. due to androgen insensitivity). However, there is no reason that such a human condition would also apply to vulpine genetics... so the different racial forms of an intersex kitsune might well LOOK like 'different genders' while genetically being "the same sex". Or they could view themselves as 'male', 'female', 'both', or 'neither' in both forms... regardless of their outward phenotype.
Once you discard the fiction that there are only two 'sexes' it works fine. The kitsune is the same sex (that is, intersex) in both forms.
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The rules don't explicitly say that the human-like form of the kitsune has to look like their fox-hybrid form. Although you would need to maintain the same physical sex, you could say that the human-like form is very masculine-looking, despite still being technically female in a physical sense.
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This thread was mainly to check on methods in RAW to avoid the -2 to the disguise check for a Female Kitsune with a Male human alternate form.... I guess I should have dropped it into the Rules Form, but I was wanting to get input from people running PFS tables. So I could see how many issues I am likely to run into when I take her out of my normal play group and maybe play him at a convention or game day or some such.
Thanks for your input...
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The transformation sequence social talent could also be used to justify a change of sex.
But it still looks like it would suffer a -2 to the Disguise skill check, as the "transformation sequence" appears to be mental - with perhaps some physical props (and that's why it gives a +20 bonus to Disguise)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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The transformation sequence social talent could also be used to justify a change of sex.But it still looks like it would suffer a -2 to the Disguise skill check, as the "transformation sequence" appears to be mental - with perhaps some physical props (and that's why it gives a +20 bonus to Disguise)
The Disguise check will rarely ever occur, and the bonus is still very significant. It won't come up as an NPC doesn't get a Perception check against your disguise unless they have a reason to suspect you. The Disguise rules are also vague when it comes to using magic because all of the penalties assume you're crafting a physical disguise and they only account for the way you look -- not the way you act. For example, the penalty for disguising as a female shouldn't come into play because you're literally transforming into a female. It's not a disguise if you actually become female, but the rules don't address this except for giving a large bonus. Because of the vagueness, most GMs don't want to mess with the Disguise rules unless they have to.
In short, don't worry about it. Most GMs won't care. PFS GMs don't have time to care.
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The transformation sequence social talent could also be used to justify a change of sex.But it still looks like it would suffer a -2 to the Disguise skill check, as the "transformation sequence" appears to be mental - with perhaps some physical props (and that's why it gives a +20 bonus to Disguise)The Disguise check will rarely ever occur, and the bonus is still very significant. It won't come up as an NPC doesn't get a Perception check against your disguise unless they have a reason to suspect you. The Disguise rules are also vague when it comes to using magic because all of the penalties assume you're crafting a physical disguise and they only account for the way you look -- not the way you act. For example, the penalty for disguising as a female shouldn't come into play because you're literally transforming into a female. It's not a disguise if you actually become female, but the rules don't address this except for giving a large bonus. Because of the vagueness, most GMs don't want to mess with the Disguise rules unless they have to.
In short, don't worry about it. Most GMs won't care. PFS GMs don't have time to care.
quotes from the Disguise skill:
"If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Perception checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for."and
"An individual makes a Perception check to see through your disguise immediately upon meeting you and again every hour thereafter".
and
"Special: Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions)."
So... using polymorph as part of a disguise would give you a +10 bonus on the skill... But "Disguised as different gender" (and I am carefully NOT limiting that to only two genders) imparts a -2 to the skill check. So, if you shapechange to a different gender, you get a +8 bonus on the Disguise check. Use it to shapechange to the SAME gender, and you get a +10 to the Disguise check.
This is checked:
- Each time you meet someone who knows the person you are disguised as ("...they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for.")
and
- By everyone else "...upon meeting you and again every hour thereafter".
Saying "It won't come up as an NPC doesn't get a Perception check against your disguise unless they have a reason to suspect you." is not correct. The rule actually states that: "If you are impersonating a particular individual, those who know what that person looks like get a bonus on their Perception checks according to the table below. Furthermore, they are automatically considered to be suspicious of you, so opposed checks are always called for."
At some point, if she remains in his human form, one or more of those NPCs is going to roll a '20' on their perception check, and I want to have her Disguise number high enough to beat that. So that -2 MIGHT matter... unless can come up with some way to overcome it.
If not... then we will just have to go with it as the rules state it.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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A plus 28 will take you far along this path, SL.
To the rest of us, I think that we have answered the original poster’s question about the disguise modifiers, realistic likeness feat, etc.
We will have to disagree on the question of whether an intersex kitsune can manifest in two different sexes in either form. This will be a matter for SL to discuss with their table GMs, as there will be clearly some table variation on that matter.
But however the GMs rule it, a +28 disguise is unlikely to be pierced by most NPCs. So perhaps we can all agree to disagree on this hot topic? I would really rather we didn’t get into a big argument for which there is no definitive answer.
Above all, I would like us to stop making inferences about the personality of other posters. We are a society in transition. Transitions can be seamless, but they can also be painful, awkward and deeply personal. Let’s try not to poke each other’s hot buttons when discussing a specific gender fluid gaming character.
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat. That would have you completely covered by the rules, SL.
All the rest is table variation unless we are fortunate enough to get a forum clarification from John, Tonya, Linda or Thursty.
Hugs,
Hmm
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Aka a box (at least, that's what we call it here in England).A cup is, in fact, a piece of athletic equipment designed to protect male genitalia when participating in sports. (Among other uses of the word, such as drinking vessel.)Maybe a cup (is the word cup in english? We call it a tock). A masterwork one. If someone ask, say that Sir Lion will never bee kneed in the groin, as that is very un-knightly.I think you are referring to a codpiece. Or possibly a box (which male fencers and cricketers wear to protect themselves).
Learn new things every day, thank you both :)
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The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat. That would have you completely covered by the rules, SL.
All the rest is table variation unless we are fortunate enough to get a forum clarification from John, Tonya, Linda or Thursty.
Hugs,
Hmm
thanks Hmm, but I don't actually think that "The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat." As far as I can tell, it would be about the same as a Disguise Self spell (perhaps from a Hat of Disguise), or an alter self spell . In fact, a Masterwork tool would be a very workable choice too... The MW tool would be limited to this one Transformation, thus insuring that the penalty for disguising as a different gender would still count for taking a disguise of a random person.
Realistic Likeness:
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
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The one true answer is Realistic Likeness Feat. That would have you completely covered by the rules, SL.
All the rest is table variation unless we are fortunate enough to get a forum clarification from John, Tonya, Linda or Thursty.
But still in an annoying fashion - sure, you've got a good enough disguise check to likely not be revealed, but if you are you will be seen to be a female disguised as a male.
There's also the weirdness that it's just as easy to pass for any other individual as your own human form.
and that's why I was saying I think a MW Tool would be a better fix... it would only apply to the "Disguise" when posing as her human form.