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I was looking for an Unchained Monk reach build, and when looking at monk-, reach-weapons, I saw only weird flimsy chains with random stuff at the ends. Why not just a simple 5-foot-long-quartertaff?
Now, I get the reference to eastern martial arts, but I honestly don't understand how such weapons are supposed to work in Pathfinder RAW (no IRL arguments please, I've already watched a bunch of Youtube videos).
The only monk/reach weapons I've found so far are:
Double-chained kama
Kusarigama
Kyoketsu-shoge
Let's start with the double-chained kama. This one is quite easy to understand: 2h weapon with reach when using only one kama, otherwise 1h/light double weapon (without reach) when using both. Apparently, while 2 kama are light, finessable weapons when wielded alone, for some reason once they are linked by a chain you can no longer use dex to hit. But let's move on.
Kusarigama: take the 2chained kama, remove one kama and stick a ball (which deals presumably 1d3 B damage). According to the description, the ball is the "reach-y" end, which means that I cannot strike at reach with the kama anymore. Is this really the case or is it just fluff text?
Now the interesting one: kyoketsu-shoge. Same issue of the kusarigama: can I hit at reach with the blade?
Additionally:
- the blade can be thrown as a dagger with 20ft range increment, but the rope is only 10ft long.
- assuming my target is only 10ft away, can I recover the blade as a free action like 2chained kama?
- the blade deals S or P damage (being similar to a dagger?), but the weight on the other end (now a disc rather than a ball) deals B damage according to the description. Too bad the damage type in the table is only S or P.
- it is NOT a double weapon, despite having all the characteristics of one. Does it mean that weapon enhancements apply to both ends?
Can any of you clear this out?
It seems that to avoid any problem at the table, the safest option would be the 2chained kama, but as soon as one wants a bit more of versatility (more than one weapon damage for example), it becomes a mess.
To conclude, which one is overall the best monk/reach weapon?
The easiest way is Monk of the Empty Hand and improvised weapons with reach. This sidesteps the murky rules of the traditional monk reach weapons.
Equipment tricks (pole) + catch off guard gets you pole with reach, trip and 1d6 dam.
Hook Fighter gets you a grappling hook (one-handed weapon, disarm, trip 1d6 dam. If you are proficient with whips you can treat it as a two-handed melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes), though you don’t threaten any squares with it.
So it depends if you want 15' reach w/o AoO or 10' with AoO.
I love the double-chained kama, such a great weapon.
Not sure what you mean by this statement, could you elaborate?
It seems that to avoid any problem at the table, the safest option would be the 2chained kama, but as soon as one wants a bit more of versatility (more than one weapon damage for example), it becomes a mess.
I wish there was a straightforward monk reach weapon. I don't like having it be in some special sometimes double weapon weapon because I've seen too many GMs get lost in the explanation and ask me to not use it or said it doesn't work.
Edit: Brawlers who say they're Monks can also use any weapon in a flurry as long as it has the modification to add it to the close fighter weapon group and they get proficiency in it.
Monks can also use any weapon as a monk weapon as long as it has three modification to add it to the monk fighter weapon group and they get proficiency in it.
Having it be in the monk fighter weapon group doesn't give it the monk property which is often what makes it count as a monk weapon.
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A long stick??? Getting all high and mighty, are we? Bananas aren't good enough for you, are they?
eheh
Not sure what you mean by this statement, could you elaborate?
The description for 2chained kama is quite clear for the purpose of reach builds, but they only deal slashing damage, so it would be natural to look also at the other options since they offer more versatility by dealing different weapon damage. However the way they work is so obscure that I would rather stick with 2chained kama anyway just to avoid table variations and discussions with GMs, especially in PFS.
By the way, this is a question about the weapons, not the build. So please stay on topic.
You had a question about longsticks and I gave you a way to use longsticks... How is that off topic? :P
Monks can also use any weapon as a monk weapon as long as it has three modification to add it to the monk fighter weapon group and they get proficiency in it.
Monk group doesn't grant monk weapon ability, so it doesn't work.
The description for 2chained kama is quite clear for the purpose of reach builds, but they only deal slashing damage, so it would be natural to look also at the other options since they offer more versatility by dealing different weapon damage.
Weapon versatility feat solves damage type issues. I find that easier than swapping out weapons or picking weapons JUST for damage types.
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Weapon versatility feat solves damage type issues. I find that easier than swapping out weapons or picking weapons JUST for damage types.
Feat slots are too much an important resource. Why should I waste a whole feat when I could just use a Kyoketsu-shoge (only a Kyoketsu-shoge, no swapping involved) and decide each time which damage type to deal?
DR/bludgeoning? Wield the weapon from the blade hilt and swing the disc.
DR/slashing? Wield the weapon from the disc and swing the blade.
DR/piercing? Wield the weapon from the disc and throw the blade.
In the same way you would do with a dagger, which deals S or P damage. Too bad it's not that clear.
but they only deal slashing damage, so it would be natural to look also at the other options since they offer more versatility by dealing different weapon damage.
Myself, I wouldn't worry about this. It will come up at some point, but not that frequently, and your monk can always punch a skeleton to death. And almost nothing has DR/piercing.
Feat slots are too much an important resource. Why should I waste a whole feat when I could just use a Kyoketsu-shoge (only a Kyoketsu-shoge, no swapping involved) and decide each time which damage type to deal?
Why? Because everyone can agree how the feat works but you'll face HUGE table variance with any of the reach monk weapons like the Kyoketsu-shoge.
For the Kyoketsu-shoge, it's unclear just how you can wield it. For instance, it states "The blade can be used as an off-handed melee weapon or thrown like a dagger": this means that you can't use it at reach, which seems to be what you want though it can be thrown and since it states offhand, some only allow you to use it in two weapon fighting and not as a main weapon. Now the bludgeoning isn't in the actual stat line so some people have issues with that and it's only usable at reach.
So at 5' you have S/P [maybe], at 10' you have B reach [maybe] OR S/P thrown and 15'+ you have thrown S/P. So no swapping but you'll instead be required to maneuver to get the damage you want.
Having it be in the monk fighter weapon group doesn't give it the monk property which is often what makes it count as a monk weapon.
That's what Ascetic Form is for.
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Using the weapon creation rules from the WMH a monk weapon with reach is 4 design points. You can get up to 12 DP for an exotic two-handed weapon with the extra DP option chosen thrice (the thing will cost 54 GP). That gives you 8 points to spend on the damage, threat range, etc.
Doesn't help in PFS, but I'd certainly allow it if the player suggested something reasonable using these rules.
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So.... you are basically saying you want to play a core monk with the sohei archetype.
They get weapon training, and they can flurry with the weapons in their weapon group. They have limited options, but those options include both spears and polearms.
There would, of course, be people talking about the relative power of core+archetype vs. unchained monks... but reach weapons solve most of that- reach+lunge means you basically have a pseudo pounce. So getting off a flurry is not hard.
Soheis of course have their own advantages. With weapon training+gloves of dueling, their attack bonus matches up to the unchained monks. And once they get the fake full BAB from flurry, they are actually better at attack bonus.
Additionally, they have an ease of use feature- they can flurry in light armor. Eventually, simple dex+wis+monk scaling AC gets better than that, obviously... but that is 'eventaully'- once you have two different items enhancing AC stats. Early on, light armor is great for basic monk survival.
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you'll face HUGE table variance with any of the reach monk weapons like the Kyoketsu-shoge.
For the Kyoketsu-shoge, it's unclear just how you can wield it.
At last you got the point of the thread.
So.... you are basically saying you want to play a core monk with the sohei archetype.
No, I'm basically asking how these weapons work. I don't care about the build.
[Side note: Sohei gives no exotic weapon proficiency into the aforementioned weapons, which means that (unless you get the proficiency by other means) you cannot flurry at reach until 6th level.]
So.... you are basically saying you want to play a core monk with the sohei archetype.No, I'm basically asking how these weapons work. I don't care about the build.
[Side note: Sohei gives no exotic weapon proficiency into the aforementioned weapons, which means that (unless you get the proficiency by other means) you cannot flurry at reach until 6th level.]
I suppose so, but a core monk's flurry is not very good before those levels anyway. The -2 of TWF style is a bit much.
In return for less impressive attack, the sohei gets 'not dying if you are not a dex/wis turtle', since it can get armor. A trade off. Honestly, I would also say a normal 2 handed weapon is fine for damage at levels 1-5.
At last you got the point of the thread.
If that's the case then you're pretty much out of luck as THAT question has been asked and re-asked time and time again without a response.
So what this means is that ANY of the reach chain/rope weapons are going to have massive table variance and there is currently nothing you can do about it. You can either accept that or find another way to get a reach weapon you can flurry with that doesn't have highly questionable rules.
So this is why people are trying to steer you away from them: You're just asking for a bad time if you take them. So to your question "To conclude, which one is overall the best monk/reach weapon?" the answer is 'anything other than the Double-chained kama, Kusarigama, or Kyoketsu-shoge aas those are all equally unusable as "Pathfinder RAW" is ambiguous and ill defined.'
Because Pathfinder assumes that you use a Quarterstaff from the middle and not the end. I've done a little bit of training in some eastern martial arts, and a few of them use those weapons held from the end.
This gives you roughly 5ft of reach, and considering that opponents in pathfinder are always moving this would give you roughly a 10ft threat radius.
Anyway, Pole Trick seems to the only way to get a long stick. Which is hysterical, btw.
So to your question "To conclude, which one is overall the best monk/reach weapon?" the answer is 'anything other than the Double-chained kama, Kusarigama, or Kyoketsu-shoge aas those are all equally unusable as "Pathfinder RAW" is ambiguous and ill defined.'
Double-chained kama is quite explicitly defined, not sure where there is ambiguity on that one. But on the others I agree.
So to your question "To conclude, which one is overall the best monk/reach weapon?" the answer is 'anything other than the Double-chained kama, Kusarigama, or Kyoketsu-shoge aas those are all equally unusable as "Pathfinder RAW" is ambiguous and ill defined.'Double-chained kama is quite explicitly defined, not sure where there is ambiguity on that one. But on the others I agree.
The questionable part is the "single reach attack" part. Some have said that this means you can ONLY make a "single" reach attack per round. There is also the issue with it's double status: It states that "The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand", however kama's are light weapons and double allows its use "two-handed, attacking with only one end of it." I can't be both double and 2 kama's.
It's as flawed as the other's.
The Versatile Design weapon mod from Adventurer's Armory 2 could be applied to a reach weapon and make it part of the monk weapon group.
The Versatile Design weapon mod from Adventurer's Armory 2 could be applied to a reach weapon and make it part of the monk weapon group.
However, as previously noted upthread, that doesn't grant the monk weapon property. It also doesn't appear on the list of properties that tactically adapted can grant. I'm afraid weapon modifications won't be much help here. ^_^
The Versatile Design weapon mod from Adventurer's Armory 2 could be applied to a reach weapon and make it part of the monk weapon group.However, as previously noted upthread, that doesn't grant the monk weapon property. It also doesn't appear on the list of properties that tactically adapted can grant. I'm afraid weapon modifications won't be much help here. ^_^
Remind me why flurrying only works with weapons with the monk property and does not work with all weapons from the monk weapon group again?
Because the Monk Weapon Property is defined as:
A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows
The Monk weapon group (as with all weapon groups) is simply defined as a list of weapons that anything that refers to this group by name applies to. Versatile design pretty clearly highlights that weapon group as a concept exists solely as something for other rules to refer to. You can do all sorts of things with it that don't make a lot of sense (e.g. you can put a Sarissa in the close weapons group) if we ascribe any meaning to weapon groups except "that's what weapon training (etc.) checks for."
Like this isn't a new issue, the Urumi is in the monk group but doesn't have the monk property.
JiCi, because rules:
the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality.
These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon
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I mean, "level" has been overused in this family of games since the 80s, and we survived.
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I mean, "level" has been overused in this family of games since the 80s, and we survived.
'brawler'.
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I mean, "level" has been overused in this family of games since the 80s, and we survived.'brawler'.
'Trait'.
'Trait'.I mean, "level" has been overused in this family of games since the 80s, and we survived.'brawler'.
Occultist. Skald. Slayer.
I'm pretty sure the monk weapon group are the ones you can flurry with, there was a blogpost about it. At least for unchained monk.
It's Link
Just the listing though.
A long stick??? Getting all high and mighty, are we? Bananas aren't good enough for you, are they?
Been playing Lego D&D much lately?
The Versatile Design weapon mod from Adventurer's Armory 2 could be applied to a reach weapon and make it part of the monk weapon group.However, as previously noted upthread, that doesn't grant the monk weapon property. It also doesn't appear on the list of properties that tactically adapted can grant. I'm afraid weapon modifications won't be much help here. ^_^
Yeah, but versatile design does make the weapon qualify for Ascetic Style, and Ascetic Form allows flurry.
PFS players are out of luck (neither Ascetic Style nor Versatile Design allowed), but for other games, Ascetic Style is the best style chain anyway. And for the record, you don't even need to use any of the weirder stuff Ascetic Style allows.
Of course, if we're using Ascetic Style, we might as well use the Tri-point double-edged Sword, which is a pretty basic reach weapon - it doesn't even have any rule text in it's description!
Don't ask me why it's in the monk group without the monk property, yet not in the polearm group even though it oh so very much is one.
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'Trait'.I mean, "level" has been overused in this family of games since the 80s, and we survived.'brawler'.
Some variant of the word 'race' added onto trait.
Instead of using the link to the Kusarigama you posted, I looked it up in Ultimate Equipment.
Kusarigama Double, grapple, monk, reach, trip. Blade does a 1D6 damage and ball a 1D3 for a medium weapon. Costs 12 GP
This weapon has a single kama or sickle held in the off hand, attached by 10feet of fine chain to a weighted metal ball. The sickle can be used to make trip attacks, jabs, and blocks, while the ball is whipped around at high speeds and then smashed into the opponent,or used to tangle an opponent’s sword or spear, allowing the wielder to then attack with the sickle.
You can flurry with either end, but generally the ball end is used for your 10 foot reach attacks. The sickle is manly for tripping.
The Kyoketsu shoge is basically the same concept except both ends do a 1D4 damage and you get the disadvantage of using rope instead of chain. Both ends according to UE, are S or P damage.
The Double Chained Kame and Kyoketsu Shoge are sharp on both ends and the Kusarigama is sharp and blunt. Other wise they are pretty much the same weapon. You get 10 foot of reach with any of them and can flurry with any of them... The double chained Kame only has 8 foot of reach.
The text about retrieving the weapon on the Double chained Kame, is if you use the weapon to disarm an opponent, you can use your weapon to yank their weapon to you. Which I don't see why you couldn't try the same thing with the other two weapons.
The Kyoketsu Shoge should be a double weapon, likely a misprint as it is a rope version of the other two weapons.
Another reach weapon would be the Monk's Spade... Except it is some how a pole arm with no reach... Not sure how that works. Does a 1D6 on either end and can deal B/P/S
Personally for a monk I would go with the Nine Ring Broad Sword. One handed, that you can flurry and dish out 1D8 per hit. Which as far as Monk weapons goes is only beaten by the Seven Branched Sword in base dice damage as it deals 1D10. The nine ring is 15 GP and the Seven Branched is 50 GP.
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A long stick??? Getting all high and mighty, are we? Bananas aren't good enough for you, are they?Been playing Lego D&D much lately?
With all due respect to Legos, I think they should bloody well stick to tangible plastic toys. The trademark Lego-mensch physique looks fine on a toy, but I don't see what it adds to a movie or computer/video game.
That, and I didn't know D&D was a pie they had their U-shaped claws in.
^Have to admit that the Lego/Simpsons crossover episode was pretty funny. If it hadn't been for Lego branching out, the Simpsons would be without a good recent episode.
Ouch -- suddenly I'm plagued by a vision in which in the near future, Paizo releases Lego archetypes of several classes . . . .
^Have to admit that the Lego/Simpsons crossover episode was pretty funny. If it hadn't been for Lego branching out, the Simpsons would be without a good recent episode.
Ouch -- suddenly I'm plagued by a vision in which in the near future, Paizo releases Lego archetypes of several classes . . . .
That might be fun to play, actually.
Another reach weapon would be the Monk's Spade... Except it is some how a pole arm with no reach... Not sure how that works. Does a 1D6 on either end and can deal B/P/S
It is a double weapon. So basically, think of it like the quarterstaff, only it has everything from under the kitchen sink nailed to the ends.