How exaclty does fog , smoke and other clouds provide cover from laser attacks?
On page 184 in the Core Rule Book under Laser Weapons, it says that:
Fog, smoke and other Clouds provide both cover and concealment from laser attacks.
Concealment is understandable, because you cannot see your target as well, therefore there is a miss chance.
-Why does fog and smoke grant cover against laser weapons?
-Is it an error/typo?
-Do fog and smoke clouds cause laser beam refraction, so that the beam redirects?
-Am I just missing something?
We've been assuming that it blocks lasers entirely. Since lasers are light, and get defracted by particulates, we've been assuming it rendered them ineffective. This may not be the case. So... Dot?
Cathulhu wrote: We've been assuming that it blocks lasers entirely. Since lasers are light, and get defracted by particulates, we've been assuming it rendered them ineffective. This may not be the case. So... Dot?
Thanks for replying! I guess what you say is possible, but it seems odd that a powerful laser weapon can hurt you, will be stopped by clouds.
My interpretation for the RAW, and lasers would result in, like you say, a dot.
I can easily imagine a laser weapons beam cutting through smoke. Maybe I got this wrong, but I would personally rule that they could shoot through clouds as normal weapons can.
Real world lasers can shoot through smoke or clouds, provided they are powerful enough. However, doing so causes a noticeable decrease in power, since energy is lost from refraction. I mean, you don't even need a visible 'cloud' for that, our atmosphere is plenty enough to degrade a laser over a sufficient distance.
I'd say the cover mechanic in this case is less of causing a miss, and more causing an insufficient amount of power after going through the smoke/cloud to actually do any damage.
Its not a bad translation from real-world physics into game mechanics (unless you start using the armor as DR instead of AC rule.)
Optical obscurement grants cover because lasers *are* light. Stuff that blocks light blocks lasers. QED.
Note most forms of concealment won't totally block lasers, they just means that even if you can sense where the target is, the lasers still face higher AC.
Metaphysician wrote: Optical obscurement grants cover because lasers *are* light. Stuff that blocks light blocks lasers. QED.
Note most forms of concealment won't totally block lasers, they just means that even if you can sense where the target is, the lasers still face higher AC.
Thanks for replying : )
Concealment doesnt grant cover and doesnt affect lasers, it affects your ability to aim at your target- giving you a miss chance.
Wouldn’t a powerful laser weapon burn through the optical obscurement like clouds? Is a cloud really going to stop a lv 17 Zenith laser pistol? You are right and I understand you point about stuff that blocks light, and I think that a laser that can burn a hole through your armor will be refracted by clouds, weakening the laser, but not stopping it completely. All that energy has to go somewhere. The laser could cause the cloud to evaporate completely and keep going on. Maybe the beem could weakened by the cloud cover. I’m getting close to house ruling that lasers deal less damage through cloud covers or maybe cause a greater miss chance because of refraction.
My main struggle with this is that I can use a smoke grenade to stop laser weapons of any lv. That feels a bit off.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
My main struggle with this is that I can use a smoke grenade to stop laser weapons of any lv.
Cover, not total cover. Cover is +4 to AC, it doesn't stop the attack outright. So not stop, just harder to hit.
Squiggit wrote: Nimor Starseeker wrote:
My main struggle with this is that I can use a smoke grenade to stop laser weapons of any lv.
Cover, not total cover. Cover is +4 to AC, it doesn't stop the attack outright. So not stop, just harder to hit. Now it makes perfect sense. Thank you Squiggit, Metaphisician and Pantshandshake!
So using a targeting computer with an artillery laser would be useless or would it negate any effects of smoke?
You would negate the miss chance from concealment but not the ac bonus from cover
Cover grants +4 AC and +2 Reflex.
Physics wise, I have no idea if lasers could be impaired by mist or smoke clouds, but as a game mechanic it is a fun quirk for the weapon type. Allows tactical variance in combats. Also makes Obscuring Mist a really impressive low level spell.
A Soldier with the Sharpshoot Fighting Style can halve this AC bonus at 1st level. At 9th they can negate it entirely.
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Pax Miles wrote: Cover grants +4 AC and +2 Reflex.
Physics wise, I have no idea if lasers could be impaired by mist or smoke clouds, but as a game mechanic it is a fun quirk for the weapon type. Allows tactical variance in combats. Also makes Obscuring Mist a really impressive low level spell.
A Soldier with the Sharpshoot Fighting Style can halve this AC bonus at 1st level. At 9th they can negate it entirely.
Physics-wise, this absolutely happens, but Starfinder doesn't treat lasers as anything like how a laser actually works. One reason the US Navy has been working on useful combat lasers for so long is difficulties getting them to work despite ocean spray.
If you want to more realistically simulate laser weapons, you'll need something like the following, but it may not play well with armor, which is designed to make you harder to hit, not soak damage, which is what it does in the real world:
1) Laser weapons do not take a range increment penalty to ranged to-hit rolls. However, square the range increment penalty and apply it to damage rolls. They have no maximum range (photons have no weight or mass [they do have inertia], so they always treat their environment as zero-g). Count each square containing smoke twice for determining the range penalty to the target.
2) When you make multiple laser weapon attacks against the same target, each subsequent attack can't miss - in fact, they also all go through the same point, making them "dig" through armor. Decide before you attack how many attacks are going against the target. Roll once to hit (taking any penalties for a full attack or etc as appropriate), then if you hit, roll the damage roll for each attack and add them all up, and deliver this as one bigger hit. If the first roll misses, all of the attacks miss (and if it crits, double the entire roll, critting all of them).
3) When you make multiple laser weapon attacks against different targets in one action, you take a damage penalty to every attack you make, as you are not affording the laser enough time to build up. Each time you change targets in such a situation, take a damage penalty equal to every target you've chosen so far (so the correct sequence is 0, 2, 3....).
4) There's no such thing as Penetrating or Automatic lasers. Treat Penetrating lasers having Boost X, where X is Item Level / 3, instead. Automatic Lasers can choose whether to have both Line and Unwieldy - toggling between having both or neither is a swift action that can only be taken once per round.
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quindraco wrote: Pax Miles wrote: Cover grants +4 AC and +2 Reflex.
Physics wise, I have no idea if lasers could be impaired by mist or smoke clouds, but as a game mechanic it is a fun quirk for the weapon type. Allows tactical variance in combats. Also makes Obscuring Mist a really impressive low level spell.
A Soldier with the Sharpshoot Fighting Style can halve this AC bonus at 1st level. At 9th they can negate it entirely.
Physics-wise, this absolutely happens, but Starfinder doesn't treat lasers as anything like how a laser actually works. One reason the US Navy has been working on useful combat lasers for so long is difficulties getting them to work despite ocean spray.
If you want to more realistically simulate laser weapons, you'll need something like the following, but it may not play well with armor, which is designed to make you harder to hit, not soak damage, which is what it does in the real world:
1) Laser weapons do not take a range increment penalty to ranged to-hit rolls. However, square the range increment penalty and apply it to damage rolls. They have no maximum range (photons have no weight or mass [they do have inertia], so they always treat their environment as zero-g). Count each square containing smoke twice for determining the range penalty to the target.
2) When you make multiple laser weapon attacks against the same target, each subsequent attack can't miss - in fact, they also all go through the same point, making them "dig" through armor. Decide before you attack how many attacks are going against the target. Roll once to hit (taking any penalties for a full attack or etc as appropriate), then if you hit, roll the damage roll for each attack and add them all up, and deliver this as one bigger hit. If the first roll misses, all of the attacks miss (and if it crits, double the entire roll, critting all of them).
3) When you make multiple laser weapon attacks against different targets in one action, you take a damage penalty to every attack you make, as... Can we please stop suggesting homebrew ideas in the rules section
Imagining lasers defracting on atmospheric particulate... so, fort save vs blindness on every one within one range increment? Keep in mind that a basic laser pistol puts out enough energy to kill in 3 seconds...
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