What rules can I use to make a polymorph / alter self spell longer lasting?


Rules Questions


I want a medium human barbarian to appear to be a kobold and infiltrate a town alone and stay in the kobold form indefinitely or for as long as possible. The barbarian will have to stay in the town for 2 or 3 years and pretend always to be a kobold. He would not have direct access to the spellcaster who polymorphed him in the first place as the town is very small and in the wilderness. That spellcaster could perhaps visit once every two or three months. It seems permanency does not work with this.


Sounds like you want a Greater Hat of Disguise


Doomed Hero wrote:
Sounds like you want a Greater Hat of Disguise

That could work if there's no other way. An item achieving the aim would be ok. Thankyou Doomed Hero.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Polymorph Any Object should be able to hit the target you're looking for, but it is a higher-level spell (L8).

Depending on whether you're the GM or a player, you may have additional options as Rule 0 is a very powerful rule.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Polymorph Any Object should be able to hit the target you're looking for, but it is a higher-level spell (L8).

Depending on whether you're the GM or a player, you may have additional options as Rule 0 is a very powerful rule.

Yes, I am the DM so I know I can do whatever, and this situation actually involves NPCs (the barbarian is an NPC). But I like to have a rule grounding as much as possible even in what NPCs do. I guess I should not worry about the rules so much in this kind of situation. I will mull over the Polymporh Any Object spell a little longer. Thankyou.


Another thing about Alter Self. How come people viewing the altered creature don't get a save or a perception check to sense that something weird is occurring, a hunch even that all is not what it seems, especially as it seems when altered the creature cannot do exactly what the other creature can and also would be acting in a kind of alien way as its brain is not of its species. Even if it should be a really high DC to spot this. Or am I missing something?


They do get a Perception check vs. the transformed creature's Disguise check (which, as part of the regular Polymorph rules, gets +10 on the Disguise).


You do get a perception check vs the disguise, but only when the creature draws attention to itself


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
They do get a Perception check vs. the transformed creature's Disguise check (which, as part of the regular Polymorph rules, gets +10 on the Disguise).

What page are those rules on or can you give me a link please?


For a lower level spell, drastic measure but reincarnate.

Dark Archive

Erkenbard the Eyeful wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Sounds like you want a Greater Hat of Disguise
That could work if there's no other way. An item achieving the aim would be ok. Thankyou Doomed Hero.

This is not a continuous item, it's use activated. The effect only lasts as long as the spell would last 3 minutes in this case. You can reactivate it every 29 rounds, but sleeping in a public room (long term infiltration) is out of the question.

You can turn it into a continuous magic item by doubling the price. (In this case.)

FAQ wrote:

When I use a magic item like ring of invisibility or hat of disguise that can be activated to gain the effects of a spell, does the wording "as the spell" also include the spell’s duration?

Yes, such items' effects have a duration, as indicated by the spell’s duration and the item’s caster level. If the item has no daily use limit, however, you can simply use the item again to reset the duration.

A scroll of Polymorph any Object would cost 3000 gp, but would only last a week. (Same kingdom +5, same or lower intelligence +2.)

You can find the polymorph rules under transmutation in the chapter about magic from the Core Rulebook. I suggest you read it well, and then read the FAQ on polymorph effects. And maybe a guide to Polymorph. It's just a +10 bonus on disguise checks to appear as the creature, so you might want to read the rules for disguise checks too.


Erkenbard the Eyeful wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
They do get a Perception check vs. the transformed creature's Disguise check (which, as part of the regular Polymorph rules, gets +10 on the Disguise).
What page are those rules on or can you give me a link please?

It is at the beginning of the Magic chapter, in the description of the schools of magic.


the David wrote:


A scroll of Polymorph any Object would cost 3000 gp, but would only last a week. (Same kingdom +5, same or lower intelligence +2.)

Kobold are humanoid reptiles. It wouldn't be difficult to argue that humanoid could be used either as "same class" or "related" (but not both) and give the extra +2 bonus that would make this a permanent duration.

Alternatively use 2 castings of Polymorph any Object, one to make the human into a small race (like for instance a halfling. Same kingdom, same class, same intelligence = permanent), and then into a Kobold (same kingdom, same size, same intelligence = permanent).

And instead of buying a scroll the Barbarian probably can't use, how about hiring a spell caster? 1,200gp per casting.


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Erkenbard the Eyeful wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
They do get a Perception check vs. the transformed creature's Disguise check (which, as part of the regular Polymorph rules, gets +10 on the Disguise).
What page are those rules on or can you give me a link please?

Polymorph rules (relevant for every spell of the Polymorph subschool, but often forgotten) can be found here on d20pfsrd.com or here on karzoug.info.

Disguise rules can be found here on d20pfsrd.com or here on karzoug.info.

(One thing I was never really sure about was whether Polymorph negates penalties for different gender/race/age/size... I think it should negate them, but I don't think it says it does.)


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Erkenbard the Eyeful wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
They do get a Perception check vs. the transformed creature's Disguise check (which, as part of the regular Polymorph rules, gets +10 on the Disguise).
What page are those rules on or can you give me a link please?

Polymorph rules (relevant for every spell of the Polymorph subschool, but often forgotten) can be found here on d20pfsrd.com or here on karzoug.info.

Disguise rules can be found here on d20pfsrd.com or here on karzoug.info.

(One thing I was never really sure about was whether Polymorph negates penalties for different gender/race/age/size... I think it should negate them, but I don't think it says it does.)

If you are Small, you would be used t taking large step to go up stairs for Medium sized creatures. You may still do the same once Medium size out of habit, giving away that something isn't quite right. Generally, men and women walk different ways, or have different body language. The spell wouldn't change that, so you would appear out of place if you change genders. Some societies have different ways of speaking to someone based on relative age. So if you appear as an elderly person, but speak to people as if they are all older than you, something would be off.

Polymorph doesn't change habits or ways of speaking, and it is those habits that could very well give away that something isn't right.


If you're Small, the Medium stairs would appear Large relative to yourself, so it would likely cancel out. (Could still apply if you're using illusion instead of polymorph, though)

The rest are primarily social in nature, so would vary based on the group you're infiltrating. I'd say the penalties would at the least be lessened, though.
(Another thing not covered in the rules is accents: If you don't speak Draconic, passing as a kobold for any length of time is going to be tricky, and even if you speak it as a second or third language, you would presumably have a noticeably different accent from a native-speaking kobold)

Dark Archive

Meirril wrote:
the David wrote:


A scroll of Polymorph any Object would cost 3000 gp, but would only last a week. (Same kingdom +5, same or lower intelligence +2.)

Kobold are humanoid reptiles. It wouldn't be difficult to argue that humanoid could be used either as "same class" or "related" (but not both) and give the extra +2 bonus that would make this a permanent duration.

Alternatively use 2 castings of Polymorph any Object, one to make the human into a small race (like for instance a halfling. Same kingdom, same class, same intelligence = permanent), and then into a Kobold (same kingdom, same size, same intelligence = permanent).

And instead of buying a scroll the Barbarian probably can't use, how about hiring a spell caster? 1,200gp per casting.

Kobolds and humans are not the same class. Kobolds are reptiles and humans are mammals. I wouldn't count them as related either.

The 2 castings would work, and cost 6000gp. I was assuming the mentioned spellcaster didn't have a caster level that high, in which case he would have to find a scroll or hire another spellcaster. (not a good idea when you're keeping a low profile.) If he does have a casterlevel of 15 or 16 it would be possible. He might even do it free of charge as the barbarian seems to be working for the spellcaster.


This works if the wizard is powerful enough and willing to spend a little cash.

Take one kobold.

Clone him or her.

Cast Recorporeal Incarnation using the clone and Extend metamagic.

You now have a kobold for 2 weeks per caster level.

Renew as needed.


I admire the attempt to be a Kobold, but just pretending to be KOBOLD MASTER RACE just isn't enough. Get a friend you trust who can cast Reincarnate, get them to kill you and cast Reincarnate to bring you back. Repeat until perfect until Kobold.

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