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The Aid Another stacking is more specific than the general rule of Same Source bonuses not stacking, so you can apply all those bonuses to one statistic.
That being said, if I were GM, I'd limit the ability to Aid Another applying to one attribute per action per creature for balance purposes. For the OP's investigator, you can spend one action for attacks, one for A.C., and even one for a Skill bonus, if you can manage it. But no two or three bonuses to a single attribute.
I agree with Darksol's interpretation, at a basic read through.
That said, honestly, spending a full round to get a +5 - or even a +7 or +10 - doesn't seem unbalancing to me. I'd allow it.
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With the above interpretation, he can spend a Move to Aid A.C., a Swift to Aid Attacks, and then ready an Aid Another as a Standard to further enhance an iterative attack, making a martial's full attack much more deadly.
This is really powerful at 11th level, especially when optimized for it with other feats, traits, and magic items. If he had better action economy and flexibility, it'd be ridiculous. Combined that this is basically at-will with no resource cost, it's quite strong.
The resource cost of a feat and a specific class ability?
I mean, it's good, yeah, but it's no haste or greater heroism - both of which are more than available at 11th level, require much less investment, and can last for more than just the turn.
Aid Another grants you: a +2 to attack, AC, save, or skill check. Choose one. And that's if you're in the correct position.
With this ability, that's a +2/+2/+1 as a full-round, or a +5 if everything works together; as a full-round action. Or you could +1/+2 (or +3) and let the investigator make an attack and add free damage to whatever it is.
Being a Halfling makes that a +3 instead of +2; that's +3/+3/+1 (as it doesn't really interact with swift aid, from what I can recall; if it does, it's +3/+3/+2), or +7 (or +8) on a single check (or AC) as a full-round action.
I think there's something else that increases it by +1, but that may or may not stack, and may or may not work with the Halfling thing (depending on wording - I'm not sure, right now).
Greater heroism requires only a standard action and then sticks around for 11 minutes, and grants a +4 to everything (except AC) and does so at the same time. This, incidentally, requires no specific class (or rather, requires one of five different specific classes) and no particular investment beyond the spell itself (which most buffers would take anyway). A rod of reach - an actual investment, but a solid one, if you're low on hp/AC - and you don't even have to be next to combat anymore.
I don't see how these things compare.
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Yeah I don't really see a problem with letting them stack.
Let's say you get your aid another bonus to +10. You use your swift, move and standard action to aid your ally's AC. That's +30AC, crazy. Now when your ally is attacked you use the Bodyguard feat to aid it again, it goes up to +40. Now your ally is completely immune to attacks, WOO!
Enemy rolls a 20 ...
or
Enemy uses Burning Hands ... (or magic missile etc)
or
Enemy uses a hex ...
or
Enemy attacks you instead of your ally ...
Basically Aid-Another is useful, but it's not a guarantee. There's plenty of ways for this to be a completely wasted action, and in order to get bonuses that are good enough to be worth stacking you have to invest resources, which means you're less good at helping in combat yourself.
In all honsty, I think using your actions to add to different rolls would be a better use of your time (as in: Darksol's rule would simply be enforcing more optimal gameplay).
I wouldn't stop someone who wanted to stack aid-another like crazy, but I wouldn't argue with a GM who agrees with Darksol either.
Exactly!
The resource cost of a feat and a specific class ability?
I mean, it's good, yeah, but it's no haste or greater heroism - both of which are more than available at 11th level, require much less investment, and can last for more than just the turn.
Aid Another grants you: a +2 to attack, AC, save, or skill check. Choose one. And that's if you're in the correct position.
With this ability, that's a +2/+2/+1 as a full-round, or a +5 if everything works together; as a full-round action. Or you could +1/+2 (or +3) and let the investigator make an attack and add free damage to whatever it is.
Being a Halfling makes that a +3 instead of +2; that's +3/+3/+1 (as it doesn't really interact with swift aid, from what I can recall; if it does, it's +3/+3/+2), or +7 (or +8) on a single check (or AC) as a full-round action.
I think there's something else that increases it by +1, but that may or may not stack, and may or may not work with the Halfling thing (depending on wording - I'm not sure, right now).
Greater heroism requires only a standard action and then sticks around for 11 minutes, and grants a +4 to everything (except AC) and does so at the same time. This, incidentally, requires no specific class (or rather, requires one of five different specific classes) and no particular investment beyond the spell itself (which most buffers would take anyway). A rod of reach - an actual investment, but a solid one, if you're low on hp/AC - and you don't even have to be next to combat anymore.
I don't see how these things compare.
A character that's geared towards Aid Another would be able to pump those numbers up higher than you're suggesting, so it's not that big of a difference in numbers. An Order of the Dragon Cavalier with Benevolent Armor and Weapons at 11th level can grant upwards of +5 to AC, Attacks, and Skills (which is more than Heroism) with average investment. Specialized investment can increase this even further, though at great cost of sacrificing Big 6 items.
The only big thing is that you're basically wasting action economy, but with a character that does so little damage, but has competent to-hit and some durability, Aid Another is a great way to spend actions without having to burn resources.
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I don't want the DM to allow me this if it's against the stablished rules. For me if it's illegal by the rules, it's illegal. So by reading the stacking rules from the same source, do you guys believe that it is actually not possible to stack aid another on the same target for the same bonus?
The rules answer (which is the one that matters) was already presented in the first response:
...you can apply all those bonuses to one statistic.
Which means yes, it works in the rules.
All I'm saying is that the GM isn't unreasonable to make them not stack, since you can get some ridiculous amounts of cheese going there.
A character that's geared towards Aid Another would be able to pump those numbers up higher than you're suggesting, so it's not that big of a difference in numbers. An...The resource cost of a feat and a specific class ability?
I mean, it's good, yeah, but it's no haste or greater heroism - both of which are more than available at 11th level, require much less investment, and can last for more than just the turn.
Aid Another grants you: a +2 to attack, AC, save, or skill check. Choose one. And that's if you're in the correct position.
With this ability, that's a +2/+2/+1 as a full-round, or a +5 if everything works together; as a full-round action. Or you could +1/+2 (or +3) and let the investigator make an attack and add free damage to whatever it is.
Being a Halfling makes that a +3 instead of +2; that's +3/+3/+1 (as it doesn't really interact with swift aid, from what I can recall; if it does, it's +3/+3/+2), or +7 (or +8) on a single check (or AC) as a full-round action.
I think there's something else that increases it by +1, but that may or may not stack, and may or may not work with the Halfling thing (depending on wording - I'm not sure, right now).
Greater heroism requires only a standard action and then sticks around for 11 minutes, and grants a +4 to everything (except AC) and does so at the same time. This, incidentally, requires no specific class (or rather, requires one of five different specific classes) and no particular investment beyond the spell itself (which most buffers would take anyway). A rod of reach - an actual investment, but a solid one, if you're low on hp/AC - and you don't even have to be next to combat anymore.
I don't see how these things compare.
But the cavalier isn't going to be the investigator.
Or, if he is, he's going to be an exceptionally specific and niche build meant to do exactly one thing.
Much more than that, though, is...
Yeah I don't really see a problem with letting them stack.
Let's say you get your aid another bonus to +10. You use your swift, move and standard action to aid your ally's AC. That's +30AC, crazy. Now when your ally is attacked you use the Bodyguard feat to aid it again, it goes up to +40. Now your ally is completely immune to attacks, WOO!Enemy rolls a 20 ...
or
Enemy uses Burning Hands ... (or magic missile etc)
or
Enemy uses a hex ...
or
Enemy attacks you instead of your ally ...Basically Aid-Another is useful, but it's not a guarantee. There's plenty of ways for this to be a completely wasted action, and in order to get bonuses that are good enough to be worth stacking you have to invest resources, which means you're less good at helping in combat yourself.
In all honsty, I think using your actions to add to different rolls would be a better use of your time (as in: Darksol's rule would simply be enforcing more optimal gameplay).
I wouldn't stop someone who wanted to stack aid-another like crazy, but I wouldn't argue with a GM who agrees with Darksol either.
... which actually entirely covers your suggested situation.
This just isn't that big of a deal.
A standard action to get a +4 for 11 minutes v. a full round action to get a +10 for a single action is not really that great.
I mean, that cavalier might be able to get the bonus up to +5 and then hit up a +5 as a standard and a +5 as a swift... and that's it. He's not going to be able to push that to a +15, as the move-action thing is exclusively Investigator. So that's a single +10 in exchange for a cavalier - noted as having their major thing be "damage dealer" - doing nothing but boosting someone else that turn.
That's a terrible exchange.
Don't get me wrong: I'm actively willing to be proven wrong, here. I just want to see why.
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It's as you said: If the Cavalier invested more into Aid Another, he'd be a one-trick pony that couldn't contribute too well in combat without a battle buddy. That is the case with most Aid Another builds. Offensively, it's horrible because you're sacrificing a lot of action economy on something that's guaranteed to hit anyway; certain builds help with this (such as by using Gloves of Arcane Striking), but it doesn't save them by any means.
Defensively, Bodyguard Aid Another is viable because it doesn't require major sacrifices of Action Economy, but it's by no means great.
As I've stated prior, it's really only beneficial if you're trying to conserve resources (but want to buff), or if you can't really deal damage on your own, but can't really contribute to combat through damage. Otherwise...meh.
No, it's not. Same Source bonuses don't usually stack, but Aid Another outright says their own bonuses stack with themselves. The portions you linked already say this. Specific rules trump General rules, otherwise Specific rules serve no purpose or distinction from General rules. It's really that simple.
If you don't want to take my analysis of the rules as an answer, then that's fine. Just don't be surprised when everyone else in this thread has stated identical answers to my own, and then you begin arguing with them. I've stated what I needed to say in this thread, and continuing any further is a fruitless endeavor. I got better things to do with my time these days.
Ring of Tactical Precision at 11,000 gp bumps Aid Another by +1.
Bastion Banner at 182,000 gp bumps it by +4 sacred.
Benevolent weapons at +1 bonus bumps it by the enhancement bonus for attacks.
Benevolent armor at +1 bonus bumps it by the enhancement bonus for AC.
/cevah
I believe you're wrong on that bastion. It gives a +4 to help you succeed at aid another, not to the bonus you're giving.
I believe you're wrong on that bastion. It gives a +4 to help you succeed at aid another, not to the bonus you're giving.
You saved me some money.
Thanks
/cevah
"Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack".
It is safe to say that they work together when you have multiple allies using aid another on the same target and even stacks for the same bonus(AC, attack, etc). So the only thing left is "and similar bonuses stack". Which it could be interpreted in two different ways, one maybe is referring to "different allies using aid another on the same target will always stack", even if it's for the same bonus. The second interpretation would be that aid another bonuses always stack even if the same player is giving the same ally aid another for the same bonuses and on the same round, ignoring the fact that the bonuses are coming from the same "source" which in this case is the player itself.
I will always take everyone's analysis to consideration but I can't just agree on something that could be interpreted in both ways. I have a DM which is extremely restrict and he always mentioned me this. He believes that if they come from the same source, they won't stack of used for the same bonus.
I just wanted to find solid proof that aid another can stack with itself even when it comes from the same source (aka it comes from the same player) and uses it twice on the same target and for the same bonus.
"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source".
"Specific rules trump General rules" it is a good possibility, this might be the only thing that favors this argument but the real question would be, which rules came first, if the aid another rule came first, that means that the same source stacking rule came later, which actually overlaps the one in aid another???
I think 2 or more aid another bonuses from the same character wouldn't stack because they come from the same source. I think the first bolded line is talking about how bonuses from many allies all stack, and I don't think it's specific enough to override the second bolded line's stipulation about bonuses not stacking from the same source.
You could definitely apply them to different things though, give your ally a bonus to AC, attack, and a skill or something.