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Copying and pasting (and editing a bit) from my post (about a more specific version of this problem) in the Mystic Theurge Improvement Thread:
A semi-aligned class feature(*) would be good for several prestige classes. Hellknight Signifer takes a shot at this (not in name), but is missing options for several classes. One fix for the 6/9 vs 9/9 spellcaster problem would be to let you progress more stuff other than spellcasting on a 6/9 spellcasting class. (More generally, same idea for high class feature vs low class feature classes.)
(*)Like Aligned Class of the Evangelist prestige class, but more limited and strictly regulated.
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^I wouldn't say that all Wizards don't care about their class features, although that was almost certainly true in D&D 3.5, when they were REALLY thin on class features other than spellcasting, and the Arcane School Powers are rather uneven (also note that a Thassilonian Specialist Wizard can't take a Subschool):
- Abjuration: Lacklustre.
Abjuration (Banishment): 8th level power is situational, but if you are up against enemies that summon, this looks pretty good as long as your party isn't summoning stuff itself.
- Abjuration (Counterspell): Lacklustre overall, but if you are a gish you could make the 1st level power decent, and do not need scaling with level.
- Conjuration: This scales with level, and has some good abilities, but the Acid Dart 1st level power is terrible. If you want this, take the Teleportation Subschool (see below), which replaces this and nothing else.
- Conjuration (Creation): Doesn't seem like much at first glance, but both replacement powers of this could be your Get Out of Jail (or Stay Alive in a Wasteland) Card, and scale with level, and you get to keep Summoner's Charm from the parent school.
- Conjuration (Extradimension): This scales with level, and could be useful, but is awfully specialized -- to make this good, you would really have to be creative in using extradimensional spaces frequently.
- Conjuration (Infernal Binder): If you have gone this route, you DEFINITELY care about the School Powers, because they are how you make an opposing Conjurer's life Hell.
- Conjuration (Teleportation): This scales with level, and has some good abilities, and replaces the laughable Acid Dart 1st level power of the parent Arcane School with an even better ability.
- Divination: Scales with level, and is very good.
- Divination (Foresight): The replacement powers are very good but don't scale with level, so if you want Divination but also want to go into a prestige class, this is the Divination Subschool for you.
- Divination (Scryer): Same rating as the parent Arcane School, but this is the specialized version if you want to be a spy (but watch out in case your enemies have their own Diviner).
- Enchantment: I'm not fond of the Arcane School itself, but the School Powers aren't bad, and they scale with level.
- Enchantment (Controller): As with the parent Arcane School, but more specialized for being a mind-controller.
- Enchantment (Manipulator): As with the parent Arcane School, but more specialized for Intrigue.
- Evocation: Mediocre, although it does scale with level, and the 8th level power is not too shabby, and also scales with level.
- Evocation (Admixture): Replaces the 8th level power with a worse power, but replaces the 1st level power with a much better power that doesn't care at all what level you are. This is probably the version that you want, regardless of whether you are going single-class or going into a prestige class.
- Evocation (Generation): Not so great, and rather specialized, although at least it replaces the redundant 1st level power Force Missile with the potentially much more useful power Wind Servant, which does scale with level, but gets good enough at low-to-medium levels that going into a prestige class wouldn't be a terrible thing -- you could make this work pretty well if you want to be an Arcane Trickster.
- Illusion: Okay overall, but seeming better for an Arcane Trickster -- unfortunately, it scales significantly with level, so you shoot yourself in the foot if you go into a prestige class.
- Illusion (Deception): Specialized for Intrigue without being an Arcane Trickster, and seems not too shabby for this; scales with level.
- Illusion (Mage of the Veil): VERY GOOD for being a spy, and scales with level.
- Illusion (Phantasm): VERY GOOD for being a controlling gish, and quite good even if you are just a controller, and scales with level.
- Illusion (Shadow): Lacklustre unless you put a lot of pieces together to make it work, and then really needs every Wizard (not prestige class, unless it progresses Arcane School abilities) level you can get.
- Necromancy: Good -- I mean EVIL, and scales with level -- actually, you really need every Wizard (not prestige class, unless it progresses Arcane School abilities) level you can get, although you need to be a gish to make the 1st level (Grave Touch) power good.
- Necromancy (Life): Lacklustre, although it does scale with level; if you want to be a Good Necromancer, use the Hallowed Necromancer archetype instead of this Subschool.
- Necromancy (Undead): Like the parent Arcane School, except that you don't need to be a gish to make the replacement 1st level power work for you, and it will work quite well for you if you're into this sort of thing.
- Transmutation: This scales with level, and has some good abilities, but the Telekinetic Fist 1st level power is terrible.
- Transmutation (Enhancement): Much better (including replacing Telekinetic Fist), and seems made for being a gish, although since the abilities still scale with level, you shoot yourself in the foot by going into a prestige class (unless it progresses Arcane School abilities).
- Transmutation (Shapechange): As with Transmutation (Enhancement).
- Universalist: Has no passive School Power; the 1st level ability is usually terrible, and doesn't scale with level; on the other hand, this particular 1st level ability is what you need if you are going into the Arclord of Nex prestige class (which, since the ability doesn't scale with level, DOESN'T shoot itself in the foot), or if you are making one of the Helicopter Blade builds reported on these Messageboards; the 8th level ability (Metamagic Mastery) is a good idea and scales with level, although you are going to be desperately hungry for Wizard levels (not prestige class levels) if you need to use this, since the uses per day are stingy and often have to be spent in multiple.
- Universalist (Arcanamirium Crafter): Okay if you want to be a really prolific item crafter and don't want any Opposition Schools; the 8th level power is the same as in the parent Arcane School.
- Univeralist alternatives: If you want to be a Universalist but AREN'T doing one of the above things for which the actual Universalist School Powers are actually needed, the Universalist Arcane School itself is actually quite lacklustre apart from the 8th level power, so instead use an archetype that replaces Arcane School altogether, such as Exploiter Wizard for all-around capability or Spell Sage if you need to stand in for a divine caster.
- Elemental School Aether: Good abilities; although most of them scale with level, this Arcane School would be good for an Arcane Trickster, especially a late entry Arcane Tricskter (for whom the 8th level ability is very helpful, and the 10th level upgrade of Aether Supremacy screams for waiting just 2 more levels); currently does not have any Subschools.
- Elemental School Air: Good abilities, which scale and become EXTREMELY GOOD with the 10th level upgrade of Air Supremacy (the 8th level ability Cyclone is very good as well), after which you will be fine going into a prestige class -- for instance, Arcane Archer, to become a Mad Strafer.
- Elemental School Air (Ice): As for Elemental School Air, and keeps Air Supremacy, but more specialized for being a mad bomber; beware that this trades out Cyclone, so you need to make sure that you have some substitute defense so that you don't get shot down.
- Elemental School Air (Smoke): As for Elemental School Air, and keeps Air Supremacy, but more specialized for being an Arcane Trickster (the 10th level upgrade to Air Supremacy still argues for very late entry, although if you just wait for 8th level to get Body of Smoke, not holding out for 10th level is less painful).
- Elemental School Earth: Scales with level, and not too shabby, although some assembly is required to make this Arcane School work well; note that Rules As Written, Earth Supremacy should work with your spells that perform Combat Maneuvers, thus not requiring to use your 1/2 BAB, so you don't need to be a gish.
- Elemental School Earth (Magma): Scales with level, and keeps Earth Supremacy, and decent for being a controller, although you and your party will also need to perform significant fancy footwork to make this good.
- Elemental School Earth (Mud): Scales with level, and keeps Earth Supremacy, and good for being a controller as long as you aren't in or too close to water, and doesn't require as much fancy footwork from you and your party to make this good, as long as they just don't get in your way.
- Elemental School Fire: Scales with level, but generally lacklustre until you get to 8th level (for Dancing Flame), at which point you both effectively get Selective Spell for free on your Fire spells and become a surprisingly good firefighter.
- Elemental School Fire (Magma): As for Elemental School Earth (Magma), except that Fire Supremacy isn't as good as Earth Supremacy unless your enemies are really hitting you with fire a lot and not adapting to your resistance.
- Elemental School Fire (Smoke): As for Elemental School Earth (Smoke), except that Fire Supremacy REALLY isn't as good as Air Supremacy.
- Elemental School Water: Scales with level, but lacklustre unless you are in an aquatic campaign and have to deal with water breathing effects being suppressed, until you get to 8th level, at which this becomes decent for battlefield control (by use of the 8th level power Wave).
- Elemental School Water (Ice): As for Elemental School Air (Ice), but this is the aquatic campaign version; even so, you might still want to consider Elemental School Air (Ice) instead, so that you can emulate an anti-submarine aircraft, unless you're REALLY going off the deep end a lot.
- Elemental School Water (Mud): Scales with level, and shoots itself in the foot with a shotgun -- Water Supremacy is made for being in water, while the 1st level battlefield control ability Hindering Muck doesn't work in water (and for that matter, Mud Missle probably doesn't either, even though this isn't explicit in the text as it is for Hindering Much) -- just don't pick this Subschool, until it gets Errata'd.
- Elemental School Metal: Scales with level, and good for taking out minions, but the 8th level power Shrapnel Burst will be some combination of dangerous for you and/or dangerous for your party, depending upon your positioning, and the uses per day are stingy, while the damage it does isn't great; currently does not have any Subschools.
- Elemental School Void: Scales with level, and very good for a combination of personal defense, buffing (starting at 8th level, with ura of Prescience), and debuffing -- you need every Wizard (not prestige class, unless it progresses Arcane School abilities) level you can get; currently does not have any Subschools.
- Elemental School Wood: Not terrible, and scales slowly with level, but you won't be doing anything terrible to yourself if you go into a prestige class, especially if you wait until after you get the 8th level ability Cooperative Defense; currently does not have any Subschools.
Whoa, hadn't figured on creating a Wizard Arcane School Powers mini-review . . . I wish I had time to flesh this out some more to go over each School/Subschool Power individually, to make this a true mini-guide.
^I wouldn't say that all Wizards don't care about their class features, although that was almost certainly true in D&D 3.5, when they were REALLY thin on class features other than spellcasting, and the Arcane School Powers are rather uneven
I'd definitely agree, and as a fan of the Abjuration school I've always been disappointed at how lackluster its offerings are as a specialty in Pathfinder. With that said, even in the best of cases I feel Wizard schools are still only matching what you're getting from an average class feature selection as a Sorcerer, Arcanist, or Witch.
Put another way, suppose there was a feat or feat-equivalent option you could take to apply your prestige class level to your wizard or sorcerer level for the purpose of arcane schools or bloodlines respectively. I'd wager that it would be prioritized much more highly by the Sorcerers.
I'm sort of getting the sense that this is moving towards a general community project to "revamp the old prestige classes". I'd love to take part in that, although I don't think I have the time to manage such a project at the moment.
I think the broader issue is that classes in Pathfinder run the gamut from "barely dependent on class features" (e.g. Gunslingers get practically nothing from their class after level 5) and "completely dependent on class features" (e.g. the Kineticist).
So there should probably be likewise a range of prestige classes that preserve existing class features to different extents. Would there be a problem if the Evangelist's "+1 level of attuned class" was a common thing in PrCs? Maybe not giving 9 levels of it like the evangelist, but 3, 5, or 7 could be a big help.
Or a PrC that advances class features of a specific class, maybe? Are we okay with PrCs that only really have 1 or 2 entries? But, like, why would a "PrC for Kineticists" merit page space that could otherwise go to "more stuff that applies to all kineticists (e.g. infusions, talents)"?
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The Kineticist multiclassing issue is probably best addressed through feats. Paizo seems to have been very hesitant to produce more feats like Expert Trainer, but feats like that really go a long ways to make multiclass combos viable.
The only way I could see a kineticist-focused prestige class working is if it's explicitly designed as a multiclass bridge, for instance allowing you to mix kineticist with an arcane or psychic casting class. If it's something you could qualify for with single-class kineticist, then I'd agree the page space would be better spent on other goodies.
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I feel like we can write off some of the "really reliant on class features" classes as just not worthy of PrC attention (or at least not the first thing we should tackle) but I think the bulk of the attention should be towards "How do you design a PrC that is attractive to 6/9 casters?"
Since Pathfinder has a great number of those (11?) and they tend to be highly rated by people both in terms of "how much I like playing them" and in "how well they are designed" (not you Chained Summoner), but the book on PrCs if you start out as an Inquisitor, Bard, Occultist, Magus, etc. has always been essentially "they're kind of a trap" since even if you don't lose spellcasting progression, the Inquisitor is still going to want more rounds of Bane and more Judgments, the Magus and the Occultist are going to want more metacurrency, and the Bard is going to want rounds of performance and giving up bardic knowledge progression hurts too.
So barring the Evangelist route (or even a partial evangelist route), how do you make a PrC that 6/9 casters want without specifically calling out, say, "stacks with levels of bard".
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but I think the bulk of the attention should be towards "How do you design a PrC that is attractive to 6/9 casters?"
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So barring the Evangelist route (or even a partial evangelist route), how do you make a PrC that 6/9 casters want without specifically calling out, say, "stacks with levels of bard".
I'd agree that this is an interesting approach and one a great prestige class would need to address. Stacking levels is the most obvious approach, and probably the most graceful.
With that said, it doesn't necessarily have to be the prestige class that provides this support. It could be in feat form, which would support multiclassing in addition to prestige classing. I do think many 6-level casters would be ideal candidates for such feats, plus it would help with prestige classes that require (or encourage) multiclassing prior to entry to avoid a valley of suck.
In a few cases synergy alone could suffice. If Eldritch Knight had actual class features to offer, it might actually be appealing to a Magus even at the cost of stalled arcane pool and class feature progression. However, I think those will be exceptions to the rule and not the norm and the other 6-level casters would need something there to keep up.
One cheeky approach could be to exclude 9-level casters from qualifying, then balance the PRC's class features with the presumption that you're a 6-level caster who is losing out on class feature progression. However, this has the potential pitfall of devaluing whatever class you started with. A similar approach could be to design the prestige class such that there's a limit on the spell level its class features apply to. Therefor Wizards and Sorcerers and the ilk wouldn't be able to utilize any of the PRC class features with their best spells.
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^Related to this, how about having the prestige class progress spellcasting in a way that depends upon what type of spellcasting you are progressing -- so for instance, one that is fairly rich in class features (as ALL of the 6/9 casters are, sometimes arguably even more than 4/9 casters and non-casters) gives full progression to 6//9 spellcasting, but only 2/3 progression to 9/9 spellcasting (but still with full caster level progression). You could have the same kind of conditions apply to progression of other class features.
The existing (from the earliest days of PFRPG) prestige class Inheritor's Crusader manages to be good for both 4/9 and 9/9 by being specifically for Clerics and Paladins (and being 3 levels only, which makes its class features overly compressed), and while it doesn't have the above conditional progression mechanism, it happens to give enough additional benefit to a Paladin by greatly enlarging Aura of Courage (2X radius = 4X area, or 8X volume if you have flying allies, from a really cramped area/volume to an actually decent area/volume), while the Cleric just gets the cramped Aura of Courage that the Paladin had before entering this prestige class. However, this is hard to pull off more generally, and specifically restricting the entry classes is not just a bandaid, but a really restrictive cast.
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In my mind, you can't write a one size fits all solution. The real answer is to have each baseclass define which class features scale with PRCs.
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I'm wondering if you couldn't effectively gate PrCs for 6/9 casters just through setting BAB and spellcasting requirements on them.
Something like "BAB: +5, Able to Cast 3rd level Arcane or Psychic Spells" would allow the Bard, Magus, Occultist, and Mesmerist to start taking it at 8th level but a Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcanist, or Psychic couldn't get there before 11th. Doing this with the divine ones will be tricky since the Oracle and Cleric are 3/4 BAB classes, though.
I know that part of the game with PrCs has always been a way to finagle your way into it, but I wonder how much you could just do with proficiencies, BAB, and spellcasting.
Dot
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I'm wondering if you couldn't effectively gate PrCs for 6/9 casters just through setting BAB and spellcasting requirements on them.
Something like "BAB: +5, Able to Cast 3rd level Arcane or Psychic Spells" would allow the Bard, Magus, Occultist, and Mesmerist to start taking it at 8th level but a Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcanist, or Psychic couldn't get there before 11th. Doing this with the divine ones will be tricky since the Oracle and Cleric are 3/4 BAB classes, though.
{. . .}
That just delays the problem, unless you design the prestige class abilities with planned obsolescence.
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Something like "BAB: +5, Able to Cast 3rd level Arcane or Psychic Spells" would allow the Bard, Magus, Occultist, and Mesmerist to start taking it at 8th level but a Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcanist, or Psychic couldn't get there before 11th. Doing this with the divine ones will be tricky since the Oracle and Cleric are 3/4 BAB classes, though.
Arcane Archer already has prerequisites like these, but the 9-level casters just use Eldritch Knight as a bridge. If EK itself was buffed, that would only get easier to pull off.