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So far Jessica Price is reporting that Paizo managers pressured her to stay quiet about disturbing interactions with Frank Mentzer, allegations of Bill Webb harassing people at Paizocon and Paizo trying to cover it up, and now reports of Paizo threatening legal action against a PFS volunteer who reported being harassed.
Is this just the tip of the iceberg?
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https://twitter.com/Sphynxian/status/918577166190895106
For the Jessica Price stuff see her Twitter feed.
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The scariest thing is since Jessica Price was pressured to keep quiet, how many other victims were?
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Is this just the tip of the iceberg?
None of our business.
Until and unless there is corroborated evidence, this is 100% gossip. Should such evidence materialize, then it's a matter for HR and/or law-enforcement. It is inappropriate for us - uninformed random strangers - to be speculating and rumormongering.
Note: I'm not saying anything did, or didn't happen, or condoning anything that did, or didn't happen, but emphatically and strenuously pointing out that I - and everyone else in this thread - are spectacularly unqualified to meaningfully participate in it.
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Is this just the tip of the iceberg?None of our business.
Until and unless there is corroborated evidence, this is 100% gossip. Should such evidence materialize, then it's a matter for HR and/or law-enforcement. It is inappropriate for us - uninformed random strangers - to be speculating and rumormongering.
Note: I'm not saying anything did, or didn't happen, or condoning anything that did, or didn't happen, but emphatically and strenuously pointing out that I - and everyone else in this thread - are spectacularly unqualified to meaningfully participate in it.
Or, we could believe the victim. I'll take believing the victim.
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Until I see something else, I don't believe that one bit. I read the same on a page that tried everything to throw mud at Jessica, and part of it was the claim that even liberal/sjw Publishers like Paizo had warned her against saying anything against Frank Mentzer.
That would totally fly in the face of everything that I believe Paizo stands for, so until I see proof that Jessica herself said that, I call bs on that. And even then I'd wait for a statement by Paizo commenting on those Claims.
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Or, we could believe the victim. I'll take believing the victim.Is this just the tip of the iceberg?None of our business.
Until and unless there is corroborated evidence, this is 100% gossip. Should such evidence materialize, then it's a matter for HR and/or law-enforcement. It is inappropriate for us - uninformed random strangers - to be speculating and rumormongering.
Note: I'm not saying anything did, or didn't happen, or condoning anything that did, or didn't happen, but emphatically and strenuously pointing out that I - and everyone else in this thread - are spectacularly unqualified to meaningfully participate in it.
If they are a victim, which we need more proof of before we can make an accurate assessment either for or against. In anycase, there has been far too many cases of false accusations or wrongful identification of culprits to make assuming guilt a wise decision. I wouldn't like to see Paizo go in the same way as poor old Fatty Arbuckle.
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Again I believe Jessica Price. I've read her account on twitter, and I believe her.
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I believe Jessica Price. Too many women end up in exactly this position every day, and until we stop immediately rushing to the guy's defense every time, it will continue. This isn't a courtroom, and we are not a jury. In fact, I don't see what evidence Jessica Price could in fact produce, given the nature of the offense. I do not do a meticulous investigation every time I decide not to spend money on the new White Wolf products, I just look at what comes out of developers' mouths. And I've seen plenty of crap from Frank Mentzer's own mouth that makes me absolutely willing to believe him a creepy misogynist. And if Frank Mentzer is entitled to the presumption that he isn't a sexual harasser, is Jessica Price not entitled to the presumption that she isn't a liar who goes around falsely accusing men? If I have to choose between the two, well, I've seen a whole lot more behavior to indicate Frank Mentzer a creep than Jessica Price a liar.
Now, the issue at hand here is Paizo's part in this. Which comes down not to whether Frank Mentzer is guilty or not, but whether Paizo specifically told an employee they would not tolerate much in the way of coming forward with her story of abuse. That's a serious allegation, and I see no evidence that Jessica Price is lying, or reason to believe she would. All she gets out of it is a bunch of angry personal attacks and an emotionally exhausting battle. And we have other issue's with Paizo and sexual harassment:
Basically, there's issues of sexual harassment basically being tolerated in PaizoCon (also, don't aupport Bill Webb or Frog God Games, because this behavior needs to stop), an employee got hurt, and Paizo neither got rid of the perpetrator or even really did anything for the employee. That would seem to back up Jessica Price's story.
I'm not going to be buying any more Paizo products or playing any Paizo games until I see the company actually do something about this behavior instead of protecting perpetrators. I'm sick and tired of the rampant abuse of women in both the tabletop and video game industries. I don't want to. Pathfinder is my game, and I have hundreds invested. I was excited that I just got my Spheres of Might pdf. I don't really have much gaming material that isn't Paizo or a third party release for a Paizo game. At the same time, if we get away with letting Paizo just sweep horrible treatment of women under the rug instead of protecting their fans and employees, it's never going to get better.
Sorry, Paizo, but you can either take some sort of action to fix this, or I can't stay with your games.
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and until we stop immediately rushing to the guy's defense every time, it will continue.
I really don't see this happening in this case. People seems to be saying that they're waiting to see more information on the situation before siding with anyone here. Because there is in fact a dearth of information.
Most of the accounts are secondhand, and Jessica is not necessarily an unbiased source of information considering she regularly makes such statements as "being so f%@+ing weary of men in tabletop". And though I'm unsure of the specifics of how she left Paizo, it's certainly possible that if it was not on the best of terms that she may have an axe to grind there.
Overall, there's not a lot of substantial information about the situation currently. And until we have more its perfectly justifiable to not crucify someone about their supposed actions and instead wait for more information to surface.
Now, the issue at hand here is Paizo's part in this. Which comes down not to whether Frank Mentzer is guilty or not, but whether Paizo specifically told an employee they would not tolerate much in the way of coming forward with her story of abuse.
Coming forward? Or going public? I couldn't tell from the context.
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So here's something that happened at PaizoCon.
I'm sure people are going to accuse Robert of lying, misinterpreting what happened or some other crap. This line of thinking implies that all accusations are false and suspect unless it's something that you *points* want to believe.
I was Frog God Games fan. I've since stopped buying anything from Frog God and won't do so in the near future. An employee was injured. The perpetrator should have been banned from the con until further notice. Period. Don't care if he was inebriated. Don't drink to excess while you're at a professional function. If I were attending a conference and drinking (and I don't drink BTW) after hours and got into a drunken altercation that was public? I'd either be fired or prohibited from traveling to said conference ever again by my employer.
I'm going to decide by next payday whether or not I'm going to stop supporting Paizo as well. I've been a supporter since well before Pathfinder, back to the Dungeon / Dragon Magazine days. I'm not exactly happy with what I've been hearing how they've been handling things in terms of harassment. I know there are good people that work there so I'm no branding the whole company. But the only power as a consumer that I have is to vote with my dollar. Even posting this isn't going to do much but again it's something.
I want to be wrong about all of this but I BELIEVE Jessica and I believe Robert.
What I want and need from Paizo is to have been better than what I'm seeing right now. More disappointed and sad than angry, reallly.
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and until we stop immediately rushing to the guy's defense every time, it will continue.I really don't see this happening in this case. People seems to be saying that they're waiting to see more information on the situation before siding with anyone here. Because there is in fact a dearth of information.
In terms of the Price vs. Mentzer angle, I don't know what else we need. We know what Jessica Price said. We've seen Frank Mentzer's defense of himself. What else even exists? It's not like the two video taped each other or anything. And I do consider the constant "Well, she doesn't have it literally on tape or a signed confession or something" to be something that ends up defending the guy in these situations. It sets up an unrealistic standard that can't be met, and this isn't a courtroom. If my sister calls me up and tells me my stepdad called her a bunch of horrifically offensive names, I'm not going to demand proof and refuse to take sides, I'm going to think on what I know of both parties involved and tell my stepdad he's an a&*$!~&. Add in Frank Mentzer constantly editing his Facebook posts in the argument about this so he could constantly deny he said things he just said, and I have even more reason to take Jessica Price's side over his.
In terms of the Paizo angle in this, more information is exactly what I want here. I want Paizo to explain to me their side of what's going on, because I'm hoping against hope there's something there that'll encourage me not to abandon the company. Because I really don't want to do that, I want to be excited for Ultimate Wilderness and the Spheres of Might gish book and whatever third party company tries tomturn Starfinder into a modern Pathfinder game and stuff. I don't want to go away, but I also don't want to support those who sweep this behavior under the rug. So, yes, I do want to hear more information about what's going on. Even if it is as bad as it looks for Paizo, I'd rather they try to fix the problem than anything else, because then I could keep buying their products.
Most of the accounts are secondhand, and Jessica is not necessarily an unbiased source of information considering she regularly makes such statements as "being so f+**ing weary of men in tabletop". And though I'm unsure of the specifics of how she left Paizo, it's certainly possible that if it was not on the best of terms that she may have an axe to grind there.
I think what Price is getting at there is how, every time we women want to discuss what we face, we just get totally drowned out by men arguing over the issue. To some degree, it feels like our voices are largely kind of invisible, and it really is mentally exhausing. Nothing against men, but I'm really tired of needing a man to step up and speak for me in these manners. I'm glad so many men are willing to stand against harassment these days, and I don't target that as an attack on those men, but I'm just so done with these debates only having visibility when the men start speaking up for us. It's like our experiences and opinions only have value when we can convince men of that.
Overall, there's not a lot of substantial information about the situation currently. And until we have more its perfectly justifiable to not crucify someone about their supposed actions and instead wait for more information to surface.
The thing is, this is what sexual harassment cases look like. They are, at heart, he-said she-said matters. I don't know what else Jessica Price could be reasonably asked to provide here. I do know Frank Mentzer has a serious reputation as a creep, and I do know he openly makes some seriously victim blamey comments about sexual assault, and I know of no evidence whatsoever that Jessica Price has or would lie about such matters. That's about the best it gets when we're arguing about who said what to whom.
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Coming forward? Or going public? I couldn't tell from the context.
Now, the issue at hand here is Paizo's part in this. Which comes down not to whether Frank Mentzer is guilty or not, but whether Paizo specifically told an employee they would not tolerate much in the way of coming forward with her story of abuse.
Jessica Price wanted to go forward about what Frank Mentzer said to her, and Paizo told her there's a hard limit on how much of that they'd tolerate, then thanked her for not going forward after she decided to preserve her career.
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I absolutely believe both of their accounts of what happened as well. There's little reason not to. However, they are without context, and let's examine what was actually said:
In regards to Jessica Price, I'm not sure there is additional context, though I guess it might be a misunderstanding. That's a pretty weird misunderstanding, though, and leaves me quite worried that this is very much not the case.
In regards to the PaizoCon incident, I'd like to note that, per the description of the incident, no Executive was ever contacted, meaning that nobody with decision making powers sufficient to ban someone from the Con may have ever been told, and their actions aside from that were based on what the person who was harassed wanted. And that's definitely a logistical failure and means that their systems for stopping bad behavior are inadequate, but it's not necessarily them covering up or intentionally abetting such behavior as a company.
In regards to the Organized Play thing, that's particularly awful, but I'm not clear from the context that it's evidence of a widespread problem rather than one leader in the organization behaving deeply inappropriately. Paizo should investigate immediately and thoroughly, but again I'm not clear that it's a widespread problem endemic in the company or anything.
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In regards to the PaizoCon incident, I'd like to note that, per the description of the incident, no Executive was ever contacted, meaning that nobody with decision making powers sufficient to ban someone from the Con may have ever been told, and their actions aside from that were based on what the person who was harassed wanted. And that's definitely a logistical failure and means that their systems for stopping bad behavior are inadequate, but it's not necessarily them covering up or intentionally abetting such behavior as a company.
That's the kind of think I want Paizo to explain. If the PaizoCon incident is something they see as a failure that can be preventing going into the future, that's a huge point in favor of staying a customer. And that's why it's so important to call this out right now. Paizo has a chance to step up and figure out how to handle these problems, and that's not going to happen if the fanbase ignores these things. If the PaizoCon incident was a failure of communication, I want to know that communication is going to be improved.
Clarity is far more important in matters fiduciary than concerns about market share.
This one hopes that the important matter of clarity will be addressed thoroughly, without prevarication, robustly, and with significant celerity.
The paradigm that this one purchases items from this company is based around an accepting, safe, friendly environment for all.
If this is not the case, then this one is concerned that it is simply a marketing ploy, and no afterlife hath the fury of a customer base that has been sold a confidence.
This one hopes these concerns may be addressed in a forthright and open fashion.
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Yeah, I too believe Jessica's and Robert's accounts.
G!ddamn it. I can't financially support companies that allow abusive behavior to continue to happen, especially when the victims are pressured to remain silent. >:(
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It would quite honestly be best to wait on whipping ourselves into a frothy rage until after they've gotten to work on Monday.
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And also recognize that they may have complicating legal issues involved and might not be able to respond with as much candor as a private person could. So even if Paizo responds quickly and as fully as they think they can, I suspect there will be a lot of disappointed people.
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This one would indicate that without a semblance of concern, the issue will appear to have no weight or merit, the voicing of a few small voices in a hurricane of white noise.
This one does suggest emotional context be put in standby slightly until Clarity is attained.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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In regards to the PaizoCon incident, I'd like to note that, per the description of the incident, no Executive was ever contacted, meaning that nobody with decision making powers sufficient to ban someone from the Con may have ever been told, and their actions aside from that were based on what the person who was harassed wanted. And that's definitely a logistical failure and means that their systems for stopping bad behavior are inadequate, but it's not necessarily them covering up or intentionally abetting such behavior as a company.
That's a misrepresentation of what happened.
There were no immediate executives available. But both Erik and Lisa got involved at the end of the day. I'm not sure whether you haven't read everything or misread them but they got involved. An executive decision-maker ultimately made the choice chose not to ban Bill.
Also because I want to be fair on this, Paizo employees are actively working to make better anti-harassment procedures to have in place at the next Paizocon. I haven't heard anything since GenCon about it, but I did hear from people at Paizo that I trust and respect that this is something they're trying to prevent from happening again and I believe them. How that actually shakes out at the end of the day is something I'm eager to see, because what happened at Paizocon this year was horrifying and left me with no confidence that the convention is safe for me to recommend to my own colleagues, friends, and freelancers.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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Also, do not expect that Paizo is entitled to publicly address this for several reason, and none of their reasons for choosing not to address it are malicious. They have a complicated relationship to maintain with publishers and the public, however I will say that my reason for making the event public was to warn others that Paizo doesn't have effective safety precautions in effect to protect con-goers or their staff and that is unacceptable.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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Also this:
every time we women want to discuss what we face, we just get totally drowned out by men arguing over the issue.
I chose to speak up about the Webb incident because A: I was there with others and saw it happen and spoke with both the victim (who has and WILL remain nameless for their protection) and Paizo staff following the incident. Paizo staff would risk their jobs by publicly discussing these kinds of events because it might put the company at risk and other specifics.
I chose to speak up because I was both disgusted by what I witnessed, mortified by the official response, and determined to make it a discussion so the issue is properly addressed. Had I not raised the issue publicly I am under no illusions that it ever would have been resolved or re-addressed.
So as someone who was deeply involved in the Webb situation, I ask you to revisit my detailed twitter thread (linked above) if you have questions on the sequence of events. If or when Paizo chooses to make any statement (and again, they are NOT required to) I'm willing to revisit the issue.
Also to clarify: I have not reached out to Paizo in an official capacity, nor have they in return, nor do I believe that is my place. I trust those who are working on the issue internally to take it seriously and will revisit the issue when and if changes are made. Until then I'm very cautious about attending Paizocon professionally again. Because *I* could have also been injured. If I can't guarantee my safety or that of my peers I can't recommend a venue.
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I love how allegations now have to be read on twitter. Maybe I'm an idiot and can't figure that site out, but where is the substance of the allegations? All I am reading is he said she said. I have absolutely no idea if Robert or Jessica are lying, but i haven't read specific allegations either. Harassing a female customer is entirely too vague. Was he screaming at her calling her an idiot? Was he using sexual language in a threatening way? Was he physical with the person in question? Without listing details of what occurred im going to err on the side of innocent until proven guilty. All these accused might be scumbags, I'm not really arguing for them. I would just prefer that if I was in their place maybe others would reserve judgement until they have all the facts.
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You guys realize the moment Paizo comments publicly on any of these allegations that opens them up to libel suits right? Unless they can prove the allegations in a court of law if they were to accuse someone of something they are liable for the financial damage the allegation makes.
What they could do is issue a blanket statement to vendors and employees stating X behavior will not be tolerated, and not invite back any offending parties.
And when you have one employee accusing another, neither having proof of the allegation, how is a company supposed to respond? If they fire the accused they open themselves up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. X employee made an allegation is not justified cause for termination, unless that was a clause in their employment contract. And even then it might not hold up in court. And i would sure as hell hope that I wouldn't be fired because 1 coworker accused me of something. Step back from the man/woman thing here. all people have rights, even those who are guilty. I don't want to live in a world where one person's testimony has that much power.
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I believe Jessica and Robert and would like to see Paizo address this situation with the seriousness it deserves.
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I think this thread is in incredibly poor taste on these boards.
You've now put Paizo in a position where any kind of moderation of this thread or similar threads will look like some kind of culpability in an already crappy situation, regardless of who is "right" here.
Just my 2 cp.
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I believe Jessica and Robert and would like to see Paizo address this situation with the seriousness it deserves.
Same. When I first read Robert Brookes' account of the incident involving Bill Webb, I decided that I won't support Frog God Games going forward.
I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread and any potential response from Paizo.
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I think this thread is in incredibly poor taste on these boards.
You've now put Paizo in a position where any kind of moderation of this thread or similar threads will look like some kind of culpability in an already crappy situation, regardless of who is "right" here.Just my 2 cp.
Poor taste? Maybe, though I don't personally agree. Necessary? Absolutely. Paizo needs to see that there's great concern among parts of their customer base, and that we feel some kind of response is in order.
Regarding any moderation of the thread or similar threads, I'm not sure that'll be seen in a negative light. The moderators usually (almost always?) handle these things in a professional manner, and I have every confidence that this thread won't be any different.
Dot
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@Halek: Exactly what we don't need here in this discussion.
Well, that's not good at all. Dammit.
Now that I've read up on Jessica's and Robert's twitter streams, I agree with you. It's not good at all.
Still I think I have to make some additions to this topic:
This line of thinking implies that all accusations are false and suspect unless it's something that you *points* want to believe.
I know where you're coming from and I agree in general. On the other hand, I'm a very firm believer in the phrase "innocent, until proven guilty", which is why I don't subscribe to the line of thinking, that all accusations must be automatically true and may not be put in question at all. Especially when I have first-hand experience in how these accusations can be used as a weapon to wrongly frame other people with something they didn't do.
If my sister calls me up and tells me my stepdad called her a bunch of horrifically offensive names, I'm not going to demand proof and refuse to take sides, I'm going to think on what I know of both parties involved and tell my stepdad he's an a&%@$~&.
Again, I totally understand this stance. Only that if I do this in this specific case, that would put me automatically into Paizo's corner, because I'm a big fan of them and think that they did a lot to address issues like gender and LBTQ equality in the past and present), while I'm indifferent towards Robert (I simply don't have an opinion because I don't know him apart from his work), and as far as Jessica is concerned, well, I'm not her biggest fan exactly based on how I experienced her posting behavior on these boards.
Just to be clear: I'm not saying that she lies, and I'm not saying that Robert is lying. What I'm saying though is that from my perspective, if anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Paizo, and given that Robert felt the need to speak up on Paizo's behalf, I still think that I might not be too wrong about it.
This all does not mean that Paizo get an automatic free out of jail card, and I certainly will keep tabs on how they handle those allegations. But for example, I think that Jessica's tweet regarding Paizo's "limits to how much of this sort of thing they'd tolerate" can be easily taken out of context, and interpreted in a way that was never intended in the actual discussion of those things (again, based on my knowledge I have about Paizo).
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But if you dont beleive the victim you are victim blaming. Dont you know the sjw creed?
Not believing a victim is pretty much the definition of victim blaming. Or did you mean to write "accuser"?
Also, how is "social justice warrior" disparaging?
Man people trip me out.
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I don't know Jessica, but I have no trouble believing her story.
What possible motivation would she have to lie? It would have been far easier (and safer) for her to say nothing. Does anyone really think she was unaware that she'd be excoriated for the crime of standing up for herself?
Meanwhile, I've seen far too much bad behavior in the tabletop community -- and far too many cases of money > morals in the world at large -- to doubt Jessica's account of either her experience, or of Paizo's reaction. >:(
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But if you dont beleive the victim you are victim blaming. Dont you know the sjw creed?Not believing a victim is pretty much the definition of victim blaming. Or did you mean to write "accuser"?
Also, how is "social justice warrior" disparaging?
Man people trip me out.
Some folk think that basic decency is too much to ask from their fellow humans.
Anyone who unironically throws out the term sjw is probably not worth listening to.
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Not a fan of the "we have to know every detail in order to believe a victim" line of thinking, but for those who need them (I didn't see them in this thread):
Brookes on Webb assault at PaizoCon
Price's receipts on Mentzer
Kudos to them for coming forward. Even after leaving the employer where it happened, it can be terrifying to report harassment.
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Not a fan of the "we have to know every detail in order to believe a victim" line of thinking, but for those who need them (I didn't see them in this thread):
Brookes on Webb assault at PaizoCon
Price's receipts on MentzerKudos to them for coming forward. Even after leaving the employer where it happened, it can be terrifying to report harassment.
Also, part of what happened to Jessica Price was Frank Mentzer threatening to end her tabletop gaming career. Well, here's the thing. Here is proof that Frank Mentzer threatened to blackball the entire Dragonsfoot Forum over them being unhappy eith the way he ran his Kickstarter. For the record, the way he ran it was "I have a big, fancy name, you should trust me without information, and how dare you want to see some writing samples, oh, and I want a quarter million dollars". When somebody specifically accuses somebody of trying to blackball them, and you quickly find a month old example of them trying to blackball an entire forum, well...