Vehicles-Hardness


Rules Questions

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

I was reading the sample vehicle chase on page 287. The enemies were riding on basic-enercycles (with 7hp and hardness 5).
In the example, the PCs do 2 damage(with an unknown d4 based weapon) and then 5 damage (with a tactical semi-auto pistol) to the enercycle, and then it is declared wrecked.
But shouldn't hardness-5 have made it so both attacks essentially deal zero damage?
The vehicle hardness rule on page 228 says 'any damage a vehicle takes is reduced by its hardness'.

So what am I missing? Can someone point me to a rule I missed somewhere that allowed the PCs to seemingly bypass hardness in the example?

The examples of play can be crucial to understanding some of the rules and how they behave in-play, and it would be a shame if there are errors in these.

Silver Crusade

On a similar note, does crafting your own vehicle increase hardness/hit points? Vehicles definitely don't follow the hardness/hit points/saves per level chart.


Starfinder Superscriber

Would love to ping this, as it hasn't be answered and I have the same question, and a couple others.

On a Collision attack you make a piloting check with a DC = to the enemy vehicle's KAC. (cool I got it.)

But each vehicles also has a DC by it's collision attack which if I'm reading and understanding it right, allows the target to 'avoid' your collision.

Is this a "Piloting" check or a "Reflex" save? I can see arguments for either.

Also doesn't this make a collision attempt twice as hard to succeed since there are two chances for you to fail. Once on your attack, and then again (if you hit) when the target gets their chance to avoid?


Starfinder Superscriber

Talked with a friend and maybe figured a bit about my 2nd question. (still no idea on the original Hardness questions, Please paizo rules lawyers help us!)

For a Collision, we think there is no avoidance roll.

Because a "Ram" action says...

"If the target of the ram action is a creature, it can attempt a Reflex saving throw against the vehicle’s collision DC to avoid being hit. If the target of the ram action is another vehicle, the pilot of the defending vehicle can attempt a Piloting check to avoid being hit, with a DC equal to the result of your Piloting check. The attacker wins ties."

Since there is no such rule-text on any of the Collision entries then there is no avoidance.

Thoughts?


Wismac wrote:

Talked with a friend and maybe figured a bit about my 2nd question. (still no idea on the original Hardness questions, Please paizo rules lawyers help us!)

For a Collision, we think there is no avoidance roll.

Because a "Ram" action says...

"If the target of the ram action is a creature, it can attempt a Reflex saving throw against the vehicle’s collision DC to avoid being hit. If the target of the ram action is another vehicle, the pilot of the defending vehicle can attempt a Piloting check to avoid being hit, with a DC equal to the result of your Piloting check. The attacker wins ties."

Since there is no such rule-text on any of the Collision entries then there is no avoidance.

Thoughts?

Ramming is intended for both creatures/objects and other vehicles, where as collisions only describe it being used against another vehicles. Both use their own sets of rules.

Ramming specifies if it's a creature, it gets a reflex save. If it's another vehicle, they make an opposed pilot check against yours, not both.

Collisions simply use a skill check against the vehicle's KAC.


There is nothing provided that would allow PCs with those weapons to ignore or penetrate hardness. No deviations from standard rules are listed, nor should they be present in core examples of play. The example is in error.

By RAW, crafting your own vehicle will only affect its save DC; HP and Hardness are given values that ignore the formulae given for them based on item level and are therefore clearly independent of them. Save DCs for the vehicle's Collision attack are derived from item level and given on P. 229, and would be increased as normal.

However, it should be noted that the Goblin Junkcycle and Basic Enercycle deviate from the values provided for their levels. The Basic Enercycle is consistent with the values provided for Item Level 1/3 rather than 1, so perhaps that's just being rounded up for all other purposes including what it lists on the stat block, but the Junkcycle is not consistent with any of the values provided, even when modified for size. The closest you can get to a 2d4, DC 9 Medium vehicle collision is either a level 1/2 vehicle that loses a damage die for being Medium but ignores the DC increase, or a level 1/4 vehicle that boosts its DC for being Medium but ignores the damage penalty. Goblin 'craftsmanship' clearly incorporates a modifier here that is not explicitly mentioned. That, or it is another error.

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