I would call that an Acrobatics check, not a reflex save. Moving across a "moderately unsteady" surface greater than 3 feet wide is DC 5, and if you want to move your full speed it is DC 10. The example given for "moderately unsteady" is a boat in a storm, but since the boat is much less unstable than the actual water beneath the boat, I would say the water itself is "severely unstable", for which the given example is an earthquake and the DC is 10. That seems very reasonable to me - walking across choppy water in a storm is roughly as difficult as walking across the ground in an earthquake.
So, I would say that moving half speed is a DC 10 acrobatics check, moving full speed is DC 15.
I've always beleived that spells don't do anything apart from what's described in the spell. Water Walking lets you walk on the ocean but it doesn't calm it. I would definitely make it difficult terrain or require DEX/Acrobatics checks depending on how tumultuous the water was. At what point you apply that is a DM's call.
|
The spell says they walk across it as 'firm ground'. Theres no acrobatics needed. As a matter of fact they 'hover' above it.
edit: firm ground is even defined.
"Firm Ground: Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints."
And negate any movement penalty talk, as that is also specifically defined in the spell by saying:
"The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground."
I need to read the definition of the spell again. Even if you're hovering over it I don't see how that helps if multiple 5' waves are constantly thrashing about in every direction. This is a fairly low-level spell; I think there's only so much it cand do.
|
|
I need to read the definition of the spell again. Even if you're hovering over it I don't see how that helps if multiple 5' waves are constantly thrashing about in every direction. This is a fairly low-level spell; I think there's only so much it cand do.
You go right to the top and hover above it. Just like the spell says you do. It even lists how fast that happens. (a rate of 60')
For the lazy: (like me)
Water Walk
School transmutation [water]; Level cleric 3, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Targets one touched creature/level
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
The transmuted creatures can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground. Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava can be traversed easily, since the subjects' feet hover an inch or two above the surface. Creatures crossing molten lava still take damage from the heat because they are near it. The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground.
If the spell is cast underwater (or while the subjects are partially or wholly submerged in whatever liquid they are in), the subjects are borne toward the surface at 60 feet per round until they can stand on it.
I think the intent (and yes, I'm trying to read intent into rules) is that you treat normal bodies of water as though they were firm ground. It doesn't mean that you can stand over a fountain to boost your Jump check ... though actually I'd totally allow a PC to do that...
Ahem. Anyway. Yes, if the water's choppy, Acrobatics checks. If we're talking storm-like here (remember that once you're a fair bit out from the shore the water tends to be fairly flat regardless) then difficult terrain.
|
|
I think the intent (and yes, I'm trying to read intent into rules) is that you treat normal bodies of water as though they were firm ground. It doesn't mean that you can stand over a fountain to boost your Jump check ... though actually I'd totally allow a PC to do that...
Ahem. Anyway. Yes, if the water's choppy, Acrobatics checks. If we're talking storm-like here (remember that once you're a fair bit out from the shore the water tends to be fairly flat regardless) then difficult terrain.
I disagree, your not standing on the water, your hovering above it. It makes no exceptions to choppy water, and unless there is a rule that says (heh, there isn't) you need to make acrobatics checks to stand on a wave...then there is no such RAW rule.
RAI, do whatever you want if you as a GM feel it's necessary, but the spell is actually well worded.
So if you are water walking in the midst of a perfect storm, you shoot to the top of a 40 ft wave, then it passes, and you fall, right? How much falling damage do you take? Same as falling on firm ground?
Then another wave passes, you shoot to the top, it goes on, you fall -- this could get painful!
|
|
I think the intent (and yes, I'm trying to read intent into rules) is that you treat normal bodies of water as though they were firm ground. It doesn't mean that you can stand over a fountain to boost your Jump check ... though actually I'd totally allow a PC to do that...
Ahem. Anyway. Yes, if the water's choppy, Acrobatics checks. If we're talking storm-like here (remember that once you're a fair bit out from the shore the water tends to be fairly flat regardless) then difficult terrain.
I disagree, your not standing on the water, your hovering above it. It makes no exceptions to choppy water, and unless there is a rule that says (heh, there isn't) you need to make acrobatics checks to stand on a wave...then there is no such RAW rule.
RAI, do whatever you want if you as a GM feel it's necessary, but the spell is actually well worded.
well
"The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground."
IMHO of course.
if the "ground" (in this case the liquid) is unstable then a arcobatic check would be needed.
But the ground IS stable, it's "firm ground" while under the effects of the spell. Says so right in the spell.
|
|
So if you are water walking in the midst of a perfect storm, you shoot to the top of a 40 ft wave, then it passes, and you fall, right? How much falling damage do you take? Same as falling on firm ground?
Then another wave passes, you shoot to the top, it goes on, you fall -- this could get painful!
Find a rule that supports your scenario and it's gonna happen, otherwise it doesn't.
He'll simply surf 1-2" on it while 'hovering' and not fall at all.
|
|
But the ground IS stable, it's "firm ground" while under the effects of the spell. Says so right in the spell.I think the intent (and yes, I'm trying to read intent into rules) is that you treat normal bodies of water as though they were firm ground. It doesn't mean that you can stand over a fountain to boost your Jump check ... though actually I'd totally allow a PC to do that...
Ahem. Anyway. Yes, if the water's choppy, Acrobatics checks. If we're talking storm-like here (remember that once you're a fair bit out from the shore the water tends to be fairly flat regardless) then difficult terrain.
I disagree, your not standing on the water, your hovering above it. It makes no exceptions to choppy water, and unless there is a rule that says (heh, there isn't) you need to make acrobatics checks to stand on a wave...then there is no such RAW rule.
RAI, do whatever you want if you as a GM feel it's necessary, but the spell is actually well worded.
well
"The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground."
IMHO of course.
if the "ground" (in this case the liquid) is unstable then a arcobatic check would be needed.
I understand your point but i believe the intent is to say that the liquid work as a solid (so you would not penetrate the surface).
As a DM i would require a check.
Then you have made a house rule, and you no longer following RAW. As a GM that's your prerogative.
The spell is a level 3 spell, it's like a fly for divine guys that has water as a pre-req. It isn't really that powerful. Why as a GM would you give your players so much grief over a very well worded spell and try to nerf it?
|
|
So if you are water walking in the midst of a perfect storm, you shoot to the top of a 40 ft wave, then it passes, and you fall, right? How much falling damage do you take? Same as falling on firm ground?
Then another wave passes, you shoot to the top, it goes on, you fall -- this could get painful!
Find a rule that supports your scenario and it's gonna happen, otherwise it doesn't.
He'll simply surf 1-2" on it while 'hovering' and not fall at all.
Wait, there are several scenarios to consider
1) can a Pc jump?
2) can a wizard cast fly and laeve the surface of the liquid?
3) what would happen if some underwater monster bullrush the pc to the air?
Ask your friendly GM, he adjudicates things like this.
I didn't read the part about hovering before my first post - I now agree with Winterwalker. It doesn't make sense to make someone "keep their footing" when their feet are hovering. I had assumed they were actually walking on the surface of the water, but with the wording of the spell I'd agree that no check is needed - the spell automatically adjust the player's elevation, etc. to accommodate changes in the height of the water. Since they never have to put their feet down, they can't "misstep" and trip. Basically, they decide which direction they want to move and the spell automatically provides footing, moving up and down as necessary to stay 1-2 inches above the surface.
|
|
In the description of the spell provided above it states, "The transmuted creatures can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground. Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava can be traversed easily, since the subjects' feet hover an inch or two above the surface."
To me, the compelling phrase is "transmuted creatures". The person is transmuted, not the liquid. The spell does not mention conveying added stability, only that previously untraversable surfaces may now be used as if they were firm ground. Regular firm ground can have its own set of circumstances that would require acrobatics checks and Reflex Saves, so why not the same with firm ground that is provided through this spell?
Thank you for the responses thus far, they have already helped a lot.
-Y
In regards to walking(or whatever else described) on water it's treated as firm ground, there is no checks to be made, it's firm ground. It's part of the magic of walking on water.
Even if it isn't firm ground, like a wave, turbulent churning, mud, oil, lava, it's treated as such while under the spell. Again, the effect describes the parameters of how this operates. :)
It is a fairly high level spell, 3rd level stuff is when stuff gets fun, and has the 'cool' factor potential going on here of a cleric fighting water elementals and sharks on top of a whirlpool.
Thing is, I think the "hovering an inch above the surface" is intended as flavour, not as an excuse to ignore all environmental effects.
Why not spray water over any difficult terrain then?
|
|
Thing is, I think the "hovering an inch above the surface" is intended as flavour, not as an excuse to ignore all environmental effects.
Why not spray water over any difficult terrain then?
What environmental effects are we ignoring? If you say anything but what the spell defines it's probably not relevant or ignored.
Don't make me get the decanter of endless water...