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I do feel like the kineticist fits generic fantasy better than the vancian magic spell caster of dungeons and dragons.
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Spiritualists fit old DnD flavour really well if you ask me.
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To be clear, there is no generic fantasy. Every work, every world, every campaign has its defining characteristics and its idiosyncrasies.
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To be clear, there is no generic fantasy. Every work, every world, every campaign has its defining characteristics and its idiosyncrasies.
That's an odd statement. Just because you have some unique elements in individual works doesn't mean that you don't have more commonalities across the entire genre.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting
You know I think that the dude from the new Shadow of Mordor games whose possessed by Celebrimbor is a good example of a Spiritualist.
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Funny, I just posted for a game on Sunday on roll20.net and I specifically called out no OA (or the vigilante book).
Personally, as some have said before, I don't think they fit in the setting and as such, I have not bothered to buy the book and/or read up on the classes. If I wanted to play these classes, I would run a "beyond the supernatural" game.
Disagree with me if you want, it's my opinion and will run my games how I want to and in a way that is not only fun to my players but also to me. If that rubs someone the wrong way, move on to the next game, no hard feelings!
To be clear, there is no generic fantasy. Every work, every world, every campaign has its defining characteristics and its idiosyncrasies.That's an odd statement. Just because you have some unique elements in individual works doesn't mean that you don't have more commonalities across the entire genre.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting
It really isn't. The pages documents a meaningless "average" which describes no particular work, only an amalgamation of other works. There are qualities that people identify with fantasic works, but I challenge you to name a requirement more concrete than "something speculative".
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The point is that certain elements are more likely to show up in any given fantasy media than others. And that people are likely to want their characters to be like a character from whatever fantasy property they enjoy. And that the kineticist comes closer to matching fantasy tropes than the vancian wizard.
Even in media based on dungeons and dragons campaigns, the characters rarely use vancian magic if they even have a magic user at all. And this is because vancian magic is so far from the generic fantasy setting.
Personally, Ultimate Psionics is banned, because it's broken. The Occult Adventures is just wonky. The psychic is fine. The mesmerist and spiritualist are alright, but close enough to other classes that I just don't see a lot of interest. The occultist and medium are more complex. Not over powered (in fact I think the medium is under powered and needs a few house rules to even get out of bed in the morning), but they might generate some misunderstandings of rules.
Then there is the kineticist; poorly written and needlessly complex. Most players that want an infinite ammo magic blaster, with a few at will abilities, are new players that want a "mage" but can't handle a wizard or arcanist. But a kineticist requires several readthroughs for experienced players and auditing them mid-fight seems like a huge headache. While I haven't seen them in play yet, I'm also a bit worried that past about level 10, energy resistances will cut too deeply into their damage output.
A warlock vigilante seems to fill the same role, but in a far simpler way.
Energy resistance isn't really the major concern of the Kineticist, due to their one big hit nature it actually causes them less issue than DR might to a multi hit character.
Whats more of an issue is flat immunity to certain elements and SR. Seriously, SR very stressful. Or they can just target physical defenses.
To me, at least, it's just apathy. After 40 classes are released, it's hard to get excited about the new ones... Keeping track of the previous ones (plus archetypes) is already a handful.
Do you actually try to keep up with archetypes as they're released? That seems a herculean task.
Personally, as some have said before, I don't think they fit in the setting and as such, I have not bothered to buy the book and/or read up on the classes.
.....
I still don't get how people with mind control, ghosts, and elemental powers don't fit in the setting when all of them already exist in the setting....Disagree with me if you want, it's my opinion and will run my games how I want to and in a way that is not only fun to my players but also to me. If that rubs someone the wrong way, move on to the next game, no hard feelings!
Except you just said it's an uninformed position.... You basically just admitted that your opinion is formed from nothing but random whim in this case. Seems rather arbitary
Do you actually try to keep up with archetypes as they're released? That seems a herculean task.
That's my point. I don't. I barely feel the need to keep track of actual classes... Bloat is a slow, painful, inevitable death...
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Do you actually try to keep up with archetypes as they're released? That seems a herculean task.That's my point. I don't. I barely feel the need to keep track of actual classes... Bloat is a slow, painful, inevitable death...
Bloat the pejorative synonym for options.
You don't need to know them all, you don't need to understand them all, you probably need to know 3-6 to run a game and 1 to play one.
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Bloat the pejorative synonym for options.
No. There's a clear difference between "Bloat" and "options".
Bloat, as I define it, is pseudo-options. The stuff that is so bad, it never gets used and is only there so that Paizo can announce "this book has a 1000 new spells/feats/archetypes/whatever!". If every option were at least decent, I wouldn't mind having 9000 of them... The problem is having 9000 options, but only 1500 of them are actually worth considering (these numbers are completely made to illustrate my point. I have no idea how many feats/spells/whatever there are).
Having to sort out through hundreds of awful options to find the few gems hidden in the garbage is exhausting. While I wouldn't say any existing class is complete garbage (like many, many feats, spells and archetypes), I can think of a few classes that could be just archetypes or alternate rules... Or at very least, be much better designed than they are.
I ordered it at Uncanny, and it still has not come in.
Should I download the PDF just to have it suddenly come in?
You know I think that the dude from the new Shadow of Mordor games whose possessed by Celebrimbor is a good example of a Spiritualist.
I'd actually call that a Medium rather than a Spiritualist. Celebrimbor certainly falls under the Legendary Spirit category.
I personally never felt like the alchemist fit in the setting. It's such an odd collection of random abilities. A guy who makes magical bombs, but also can do not-magic magic by drinking stuff. With another drink that can make his stats wonky and discoveries to make all the wonky bits wonkier.
The point is that certain elements are more likely to show up in any given fantasy media than others. And that people are likely to want their characters to be like a character from whatever fantasy property they enjoy. And that the kineticist comes closer to matching fantasy tropes than the vancian wizard.
Even in media based on dungeons and dragons campaigns, the characters rarely use vancian magic if they even have a magic user at all. And this is because vancian magic is so far from the generic fantasy setting.
Neither are more or less fantasy than the other, as neither have more or less a right to be viewed as the "default". They're both fantasy, just different flavors.
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Bloat the pejorative synonym for options.No. There's a clear difference between "Bloat" and "options".
Bloat, as I define it, is pseudo-options. The stuff that is so bad, it never gets used and is only there so that Paizo can announce "this book has a 1000 new spells/feats/archetypes/whatever!". If every option were at least decent, I wouldn't mind having 9000 of them... The problem is having 9000 options, but only 1500 of them are actually worth considering (these numbers are completely made to illustrate my point. I have no idea how many feats/spells/whatever there are).
Having to sort out through hundreds of awful options to find the few gems hidden in the garbage is exhausting. While I wouldn't say any existing class is complete garbage (like many, many feats, spells and archetypes), I can think of a few classes that could be just archetypes or alternate rules... Or at very least, be much better designed than they are.
"Garbage" is subjective and usually says more about a given player's value judgment than the ability itself. The best one can do objectively is compare options to each other in a strictly mechanical fashion. At that point, we might as well all play identical wizards.
Neither are more or less fantasy than the other, as neither have more or less a right to be viewed as the "default". They're both fantasy, just different flavors.The point is that certain elements are more likely to show up in any given fantasy media than others. And that people are likely to want their characters to be like a character from whatever fantasy property they enjoy. And that the kineticist comes closer to matching fantasy tropes than the vancian wizard.
Even in media based on dungeons and dragons campaigns, the characters rarely use vancian magic if they even have a magic user at all. And this is because vancian magic is so far from the generic fantasy setting.
But one is more common. Hence, generic fantasy.
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No. There's a clear difference between "Bloat" and "options".
Bloat, as I define it, is pseudo-options. The stuff that is so bad, it never gets used and is only there so that Paizo can announce "this book has a 1000 new spells/feats/archetypes/whatever!". If every option were at least decent, I wouldn't mind having 9000 of them... The problem is having 9000 options, but only 1500 of them are actually worth considering (these numbers are completely made to illustrate my point. I have no idea how many feats/spells/whatever there are).
See if you were talking about Spells or feats when you called them bloats you'd have had my support (particularly when feats are invented to allow you to do things you should be able to do without a feat, I believe there is one to allow you to build a barricade out of stuff lying around, for example). But when you said bloat you weren't, you were talking about Archetypes and had previously been talking about Occult classes as a whole.
None of the occult classes are garbage unusable bloat, the Kineticist is badly laid out, the Mesmerist is arguably undertuned and the Medium is clunky. None of them are a chained rogue or monk.
Are there bad archetypes? Yes like that one that makes fighters a 4th level casting class in exchange for basically everything or the Brute Vigilante or the Pact Wizard. However, many, many, many of them attract people. I'd suggest that the generally these bad egg archetypes are the exception not the rule when it comes to archetypes.
Having to sort out through hundreds of awful options to find the few gems hidden in the garbage is exhausting. While I wouldn't say any existing class is complete garbage (like many, many feats, spells and archetypes), I can think of a few classes that could be just archetypes or alternate rules... Or at very least, be much better designed than they are.
I quite agree, however those classes are not in the Occult Adventures book, the stand out examples of those classes are the Swashbuckler and the Gunslinger, which could both easily have been fighters. And the most badly balanced classes at release were, the fighter, the Wizard, the Core Rogue, The chained summoner and the Core Monk. The theme being that its not the newer classes that are broken either in the strong or the weak sense but the old ones.
In my opinion Paizo has (rather predictably) got better at balancing classes on release as they've matured, not worse.
So yeah, Occult is an option not bloat if you ask me.
But one is more common. Hence, generic fantasy.Neither are more or less fantasy than the other, as neither have more or less a right to be viewed as the "default". They're both fantasy, just different flavors.The point is that certain elements are more likely to show up in any given fantasy media than others. And that people are likely to want their characters to be like a character from whatever fantasy property they enjoy. And that the kineticist comes closer to matching fantasy tropes than the vancian wizard.
Even in media based on dungeons and dragons campaigns, the characters rarely use vancian magic if they even have a magic user at all. And this is because vancian magic is so far from the generic fantasy setting.
Depends on how you split the hairs. Vancian magic is very specific, but the concept of magic having specific, often arbitrary rules is very common. Similarly, kineticists just channeling their element is very common, but the specific set of limitations and rules around it in Pathfinder's implementation is very specific. If you broaden both to similar scopes, they're both "generic fantasy".
Maybe my original point wasn't made well. Speaking about which is more common in fantasy in general may have merit for creative or sociological reasons, but the idea of something not fitting "generic fantasy" is where I have to say, "nay, sir!" for fear of getting lost in a sea of no-true-Nirmathi fallacies.
To split further hairs, I consider generic fantasy to be more of a starting point that you then take away from and add to, to make your own non-generic fantasy world. Golarion, for example, is a non-generic world, but still has many of the elements of generic fantasy.
From a business standpoint though, it's pretty important for a game like this to allow you to approximate the abilities of popular characters from popular fantasy stories. And I feel like an elemental master who doesn't use vancian magic, can cover quite a few fantasy archetypes.
To split further hairs, I consider generic fantasy to be more of a starting point that you then take away from and add to, to make your own non-generic fantasy world. Golarion, for example, is a non-generic world, but still has many of the elements of generic fantasy.
From a business standpoint though, it's pretty important for a game like this to allow you to approximate the abilities of popular characters from popular fantasy stories. And I feel like an elemental master who doesn't use vancian magic, can cover quite a few fantasy archetypes.
Agreed! It's a neat thing to have, and it does cover archetypes that are difficult to model with existing material.
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So now some of us are arguing that preferences, and really, NONE of this is anything more than preference, yet, are we really arguing that preferences you don't care for are then WRONG?
Time to let this one die.
I've never really gotten on bored with the whole Fighters are too weak and Wizards are too strong point of view. In 25 years of D&D and Pathfinder, well since 3.5 anyway, I've never had a fighter in my game (and there is almost always one) that felt underpowered or a wizard that was game breaking. I've had some serious issues with a druid, a gunslinger, and a summoner, but not wizards being overpowered.
The fighters usually have the highest average damage per day and wizards have a really high mortality rate (compared to everything else).
I think bloat is an increasingly annoying issue in Pathfinder. I'd much rather they buffed the weakest 25% of spells, feats, and archetypes rather than just churn out another book, but OA isn't guilty of that. All the classes do feel different enough. Psychic and mesmerist does feel like just a psychic sorcerer and bard, but there isn't already a psychic sorcerer and bard, so that's alright.
So now some of us are arguing that preferences, and really, NONE of this is anything more than preference, yet, are we really arguing that preferences you don't care for are then WRONG?
Time to let this one die.
There's nothing wrong in saying that this doesn't fit in your particular world. I was just making the point that some of these options are more common to fantasy, than some of the other character options that people seem to be ok with. And I think they fit right in with the fantasy kitchen sink that is Golarion.
Personally, Ultimate Psionics is banned, because it's broken.
If you find Ultimate Psionics to be broken I have no idea how you manage to play Pathfinder considering that Ultimate Psionics is objectively much better balanced than the CRB, APG, ACG and OA.
The only thing I "hate" about OA is that some of the classes (Psychic, Spiritualist) feel incredibly copy/paste.
Personally, Ultimate Psionics is banned, because it's broken.
Pure heresy
I personally dislike Occult Adventures because each class has too many unique mechanics that are so poorly explained and needlessly convoluted that I can't tell what each class can even do. Seriously, you put me with two "different" classes from that book, and I'll tell you "They're the same damn thing!" (even though they shouldn't be). The fact I can't tell two classes apart from that book (compared to me having generic ideas behind the chassis of most other classes) tells me that the overall writing for it was horribly done as being nothing more than a mish-mash of random words and calling it a "class."
Even amongst that, the Kineticist (the only reason I know this as a class is because there were so many threads for it) is practically the easiest of the classes to learn, and even then I don't understand half their mechanics because Psionic/Psychic classes are so damn confusing due to their convoluted writing that's akin to the Ancient Aliens guy saying Psychics/Psionics aren't magic, but then saying they're magic.
Their spellcasting is fairly confusing as well, since it switches up what sort of components are needed, and doesn't do a great job explaining what is all switched out, and the big ramifications between the different types of spellcasting.
I mean, I think I (and numerous others) would probably have a better opinion on the book if Psionic/Psychic classes as a whole made more sense and actually explained their mechanics, or used more existing mechanics, instead of having to completely reinvent the wheel with every Occult class that was published, and making me scratch my head at whether or not I'm actually understanding what the text is saying.
I don't hate them, but they're so far from traditional fantasy that I think they put some people off at first. They almost seem like they belong to a different world than Golarion, for example.
Sorry, don't see it. Far off from earlier editions of the game, perhaps. Far off from traditional fantasy, I don't think so. Occultist is more in line with swords-and-sorcery than most of the casters in the game, as is Mesmerist. I can also find more fantasy inspiration in the Spiritualist than I can for the animal-sidekick classes.
Kineticist clearly has much in common with Avatar: TLA-style benders but inspiration in stories like Firestarter go much farther back.
Did we need a 9th-level caster in the Psychic? Probably not, but I've always felt the game should have flattened the caster power-curve from the start.
Occult Adventures is a kick-butt book.
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So Occult adventures has 6 classes.
I just want to post a quick run-down for GMs or players who haven't read or understood the book and for those who for some reason think it is the same as Psionics:
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Kineticist:
An elementalist/telekenetic that can do Spell like abilities at the cost of their physical stamina.
- Unique abilities Blast SLA, works like a Spell Like Ability.
- Burn: A pool that counts up, deals non-lethal damage to user equal to kineticist level.
- Overflow: When your pool reaches certain threshholds gain bonuses.
- Infusion Specialization/Composite Specialization/Metakinetic Specialization: Discounts for Burn costs.
Medium:
A character that becomes augmented by legendary spirits that resemble mythic paths.
- Spirits: Choose one of six spirits, gain a listed bonus and abilities based on the kind of spirit. Based on the 6 Mythic Paths.
- Influence: A pool, it counts up instead of down. Try not to get 3 points.
- Psychic Spellcasting: Use Emotion/Thought Components instead of Verbal/Somatic components.
Mesmerist
A different kind of bard, makes enemies feel bad, allies feel good. Great at mind control
- Hypnotic Stare: Make enemies feel bad, helps you achieve your will targeting magic.
- Tricks: Small buffs for your allies.
- Psychic Spellcasting: Use emotion/thought components instead of verbal/somatic.
Occultist
Carries cool stuff, specializes in Wizard spell schools to be the epitome of what those schools represent.
- Focus Powers: You gain a free power based on the School (Implement) you have, then more later.
- Implements: Pick a wizard school, you'll gain spells based on those wizard schools. You'll carry a focus item based on that school with you.
- Mental Focus: A pool of points. Each day invest points into implements to gain passive powers. Spend points from implements to activate powers, lose the passive if you spend all the points.
- Psychic Spellcasting: Use Emotion/Thought Components instead of Verbal/Somatic components.
Psychic
You are a sorcerer, with mind powers and a pool.
- Discipline: It's like a bloodline with a way to recharge your pool.
- Amplifications: They're like bloodline powers except they cost points from a pool.
- Psychic Spellcasting: Use Emotion/Thought Components instead of Verbal/Somatic components.
Spiritualist
You are good at influencing emotions, and have a ghost pal, like a summoner except you can only summon slimer.
- Phantom: Fully manifested - Fights for you or acts as incorporeal scout. Confined to Consciousness: Save bonus, skill focus for spiritualist. Unique abilities based on emotional focus.
- Bonded Manifestation: Ectoplasmic: Gain ghostly armor/weapons. Incorporeal: Get stealthy/spooky powers.
- Psychic Spellcasting: Use Emotion/Thought Components instead of Verbal/Somatic components.
stuff
This is literally all I gathered from your post (no offense to you of course).
Even when somebody tries to simplify what a Psychic/Psionic class is supposed to do, I still don't understand what the heck their mechanics actually are, which only tells me that they took a bunch of random nouns and randomly crafted sentences and called them "class features."
It only tells me that the Psychic/Psionic classes are overly convoluted and add a whole other level of confusion and complication for no reason other than to make them different from our currently-defined traditional features. Which is basically what Mythic does. And numerous people aren't a fan of Mythic for that very reason (myself included).
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stuffThis is literally all I gathered from your post (no offense to you of course).
Even when somebody tries to simplify what a Psychic/Psionic class is supposed to do, I still don't understand what the heck their mechanics actually are, which only tells me that they took a bunch of random nouns and randomly crafted sentences and called them "class features."
It only tells me that the Psychic/Psionic classes are overly convoluted and add a whole other level of confusion and complication for no reason other than to make them different from our currently-defined traditional features. Which is basically what Mythic does. And numerous people aren't a fan of Mythic for that very reason (myself included).
Sounds like a reading comprehension problem.
Generic is what most people do unadorned with specifics.
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I'll repeat, of all the Psychic Classes only Occultist and Kineticist are actually confusing, and only they Mesmerist and Medium actually even use new mechanics much.
Spiritualist is pretty much just a simpler version of Summoner (only with something simpler than an Animal Companion rather than an Eidolon), and Psychic is a full spontaneous caster with a pool of points.
Neither of that is complicated.
Mesmerist and Medium use new mechanics, sure, but no more than Alchemist or Witch did when they started out.
They're not super complicated either
Now, Kineticist is legitimately a new thing and, IMO, organized in such a way as to be confusing, and Occultist's pool has enough weird interactions that they too are confusing.
So that's two out of six that are actually confusing, IME.
Sounds like a reading comprehension problem.
Which isn't helped when the mechanics don't make sense and are overly convoluted for no reason.
I mean I'm sure their was probably SOME reason.
I mean, I'm sure there was probably some reason...
Fixed that for you.
Now quit being a jerk just because I don't understand (or care to understand) Psychic/Psionic classes because they're pointlessly complicated.
I don't care about that just the statement of "for no reason" seemed disingenuous. I'm fine with you not liking them that is all you.
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Fixed that for you.Now quit being a jerk just because I don't understand (or care to understand) Psychic/Psionic classes because they're pointlessly complicated.
I think what vid was asserting is that most people who've actually read them seem to think that the majority are in fact not overly complex with the exception of kineticist and maybe one other.
There seems to be a lot of people simply assuming that they're crazy complex. Dudemeister laid them out extremely simply and yet you barely glanced at his post and reduced it to stuff. It genuinely seems like willful ignorance.
Just because you think they are overly complex doesn't make them that.
Fixed that for you.Now quit being a jerk just because I don't understand (or care to understand) Psychic/Psionic classes because they're pointlessly complicated.
I think what vid is asserting is that most people who've actually read them seem to think that the majority are in fact not overly complex with the exception of kineticist and maybe one other.
There seems to be a lot of people simply assuming that they're crazy complex. Dudemeister laid them out extremely simply and yet you barely glanced at his post and reduce it to stuff. It genuinely seems like willful ignorance.
Just because you think they are overly complex doesn't make them that.
You put it way better then I did. Thank you.
I do think it's kind of funny that the two most common criticisms of the Occult classes appear to be:
- These are just slight variations on existing classes (I mean, the Psychic is basically an INT-based sorcerer whose 'bloodline' keys off CHA or WIS, and the Spiritualist is a Summoner with a different spell list).
- I don't have time to learn all these crazy new classes (as though people thought internalizing how the Shaman works was NBD.)
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I absolutely love the Kinetecist.
I honestly find it really simple to build.
There are no massive feat trees to build or decisions that will screw you over.
The only difficult bit of the class build is making sure you pick the right stats depending on what type of blast you want to use.
In terms of the mechanics it is really really simple.
Burn:
Hey, this thing has burn. Hey, I have this ability that reduces burn. +burnA-burnVB = Burn Taken
Pretty simple in my mind
Overflow:
Hey I have taken this much burn, lets adjust my stats.
if Burn Taken > threshhold: Adjust stats
And so on.
I find if you break the seperate mechanics down they become incredibly simple, and I find rather intuitive.
Personally, Ultimate Psionics is banned, because it's broken.If you find Ultimate Psionics to be broken I have no idea how you manage to play Pathfinder considering that Ultimate Psionics is objectively much better balanced than the CRB, APG, ACG and OA.
The only thing I "hate" about OA is that some of the classes (Psychic, Spiritualist) feel incredibly copy/paste.
+1 Yeah, I don't see what's broken there, if anything, the psi points mechanic makes for better balance than other class sets because there, the balancing act is obvious... at any rate, the 3.5 psionic classes needed a bit of a boost to get up to the level of PF classes, which is what Dreamscarred did, without, to my view, overdoing it.
- I don't have time to learn all these crazy new classes (as though people thought internalizing how the Shaman works was NBD.)
I still don't know how a Shaman works and I know all but the medium from OA, which simply didn't grab me enough to learn it. xD
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My problem with shaman is I want to play ALL the archetypes.